Rant: Newish audiophile’s terrible first experience with “Hi-Res” on Windows

[Static Albatross]

Last week I received my first “audiophile dac” with support for “Hi-Res Audio”, a SMSL M300 MKII. I knew that I had to download drivers to get some of the wackyer bitrates working correctly. Besides that I assumed it would “just work”.

So I get some sample files at various bitrates to test and the screen on the dac always says “44.1kHz”. So first I tried cranking the bitrate in windows, because hopefully upsampling lower bitrate content is better than downsampling higher bitrate content. This caused some applications to throw errors, so back to 44/16. That's when I did a little research and learned I needed to use WASAPI or asio exclusive mode, which cuts off audio for other applications.

This is already not a great user experience. I would have hoped for something more along the lines of defaulting to native content bitrate unless there are multiple apps producing sound. In that case upsample the lower bitrate content to match the higher if they are different. I suppose it is easy for me to make these sorts of suggestions without understanding any of the difficulties that go along with it. Perhaps it is impossible.

The bigger problem is that WASAPI seems to be very janky in general. I have encountered a wide array of problems with it including but not limited to:

1. Pausing (all) or even stopping (most) playback does not release the audio control on media players. The only way to regain control is to close the player entirely.
2. Some media players use WASAPI exclusive but then just resample the audio themselves for some reason.
3. Media players will sometimes not release control even when closed, forcing a reboot of the dac to regain control.
4. Websites have to be refreshed in order to play audio after exclusive control is released
5. Sometimes after using exclusive mode, switching playback devices in windows will no longer work. This issue requires a full system restart to fix.
6. Discord will always break and requires you to manually reset the audio playback device. Discord breaks semi regularly though, so I think this could be blamed on them.

For media players so far I have tried AIMP, Audirvarna, Foobar2000, Grove, MediaMonkey, Media Player Classic, MusicBee, Resonic Player, VLC, Windows Media Player. They all either don’t support Exclusive mode, or exhibit at least some of these undesirable behaviors.

I have not spent as much time with ASIO exclusive mode, but the problems are much the same. There are also still media players that I haven’t tried. At this point though I am assuming the only way to get this working well is to have a dedicated media PC and then switch inputs on the dac as needed.

I am curious, have y’all have encountered these issues? Does anyone even bother using exclusive mode? Could this be caused by Xmos Drivers?

I should end by saying I consider myself proficient with computers, and I know a bad time when I have one. I am not however well versed in the audio science side of things. I have not yet done any blind testing, and I don’t make any claim whatsoever that hi-res audio, or windows resampling and dithering actually matters. These are things I would hope to know in due time. To start with I Just wanted to try some fancy new files on my fancy new dac.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

I have not spent as much time with ASIO exclusive mode, but the problems are much the same.

Not if the ASIO driver is provided by the component manufacturer.

I am curious, have y’all have encountered these issues? Does anyone even bother using exclusive mode? Could this be caused by Xmos Drivers?

1. Only briefly.
2. Yes, all the time.
3. Dunno.

For media players so far I have tried AIMP, Audirvarna, Foobar2000, Grove, MediaMonkey, Media Player Classic, MusicBee, Resonic Player, VLC, Windows Media Player. They all either don’t support Exclusive mode, or exhibit at least some of these undesirable behaviors.

I have had brief experiences with Audirvana and Foobar without major problems. Mostly I use JRiver or Roon and they work just fine (almost all the time. Nothing is perfect.)

 

[Static Albatross]

Not if the ASIO driver is provided by the component manufacturer.

1. Only briefly.
2. Yes, all the time.
3. Dunno.

I have had brief experiences with Audirvana and Foobar without major problems. Mostly I use JRiver or Roon and they work just fine (almost all the time. Nothing is perfect.)

Thanks for the tips. I will have to give JRiver a shot. And perhaps spend some more time with ASIO as well.

 

[Pluto]

ASIO does not, in general, offer an 'exclusive' mode because its purpose in life is to offer flexibility of configuration in professional situations where the last thing you want is for one application to 'lock out' the entire audio subsystem against other applications. ASIO is very much a concept that permits multiple applications to work together in harmony. It is highly flexible but the quid pro quo is the freedom to get things horribly wrong.

Of your earlier list of applications, it is surprising how many do not support WASAPI at all. Incidentally, WASAPI support does not necessarily entail exclusive mode. If the application does not specify exclusive or otherwise, it could go either way. JRiver works very well indeed; it's stable, reliable, does what it says on the tin and there is excellent support on their forum.

ASIO works when well implemented but I would steer clear unless you really, really, have no alternative. It is fashionable in so-called audiopile circles to claim that ASIO "sounds better" on account of this, that, or the other, false premise. WASAPI is entirely capable of bit-perfection and this is the task it was designed for. I assume your DAC uses Thesycon drivers, which are as stable as they come. If you are comfortable "messing about" with computer stuff, my software of choice, at this stage, would be Foobar as it is capable of any operating mode (with the necessary add-on components) and is very good for experimenting with the more subtle behaviours of Windows audio.

 

[Aerith Gainsborough]

Summary: yes it is not very comfortable to get high res content to work on Windows.
It is very easy to do with WASAPI exclusive under Foobar but that is only applicable for focused listening sessions, when the computer isn't doing much else in the sound department. The behavior your stated (player needing to be closed, websites needing a reload) are pretty much normal.

You have 3 choices:
a) set the windows system sample rate to the rate of your high resolution audio content. Then your file gets through "unscathed" and everything lower is sampled up.
b) set the system sample rate to 44.1 or 48 and let your HR file be sampled down.
c) get used to switching the playback format whenever you want to have focused listening sessions. Just flip the switch to WASAPI exclusive and when done use the normal formats for "everyday use". If you find that you can hear a difference, that is.

Personally speaking: These high resolution formats serve no purpose as far as mundane playback is concerned and are only born because the Audio industry would love a pendant to the HD/UHD/8K etc. craze of the video world. Alas, poor old 44.1/16 Redbook is all our human ears can handle.
The advanced formats do have advantages when mixing and mastering though and enable them engineers to work their magic even better.

I can't hear any difference between setting Foobar to direct sound, WASAPI, or using ASIO (I regularly do, because I work with Software instrument libraries and use a DAW to do room correction). I can measure it but I cannot hear it even in a sighted comparison.
Latency is another matter entirely but that does not factor into simple playback.

I just set my system to 48KHz/24Bits and forget about it. Also I prefer to use direct sound because I like the "fade out" effects on pause/next track instead of the "KRRK!" I get when using WASAPI exclusive. I also like being able to do more than one thing at any time.

 

[Fluffy]

Radical suggestion: realize that hi-res is pointless and default to 44.1khz and be happy forever.

 

[Wombat]

Summary: yes it is not very comfortable to get high res content to work on Windows.
It is very easy to do with WASAPI exclusive under Foobar but that is only applicable for focused listening sessions, when the computer isn't doing much else in the sound department. The behavior your stated (player needing to be closed, websites needing a reload) are pretty much normal.

You have 3 choices:
a) set the windows system sample rate to the rate of your high resolution audio content. Then your file gets through "unscathed" and everything lower is sampled up.
b) set the system sample rate to 44.1 or 48 and let your HR file be sampled down.
c) get used to switching the playback format whenever you want to have focused listening sessions. Just flip the switch to WASAPI exclusive and when done use the normal formats for "everyday use". If you find that you can hear a difference, that is.

Personally speaking: These high resolution formats serve no purpose as far as mundane playback is concerned and are only born because the Audio industry would love a pendant to the HD/UHD/8K etc. craze of the video world. Alas, poor old 44.1/16 Redbook is all our human ears can handle.
The advanced formats do have advantages when mixing and mastering though and enable them engineers to work their magic even better.

I can't hear any difference between setting Foobar to direct sound, WASAPI, or using ASIO (I regularly do, because I work with Software instrument libraries and use a DAW to do room correction). I can measure it but I cannot hear it even in a sighted comparison.
Latency is another matter entirely but that does not factor into simple playback.

I just set my system to 48KHz/24Bits and forget about it. Also I prefer to use direct sound because I like the "fade out" effects on pause/next track instead of the "KRRK!" I get when using WASAPI exclusive. I also like being able to do more than one thing at any time.

Yes, yes, yes!

Why doesn't reality stick? Self deception of course.

 

[Aerith Gainsborough]

Why doesn't reality stick? Self deception of course.

Off topic tangent:

Maybe it is rooted in the inherent wish for an enhanced reality. To be more than we are.
Add to that how easy it is to deceive our senses coupled with how little the general populace knows about the technology and engineering principles and you have a recipe for illusions created by salesmen.

Once the illusion takes off, people are afraid to go against the grain because of a possible loss of acceptance by others.
At that point, the illusion is self perpetuating.

Personal anecdote: I have followed this forum for more than a year now (only recently created an account). I've read a lot about amplifiers, DACs, speakers, psychoacoustics, did the "how much distortion can you hear" tests ... you name it.
I had the luck to stumble across this valuable forum at the very beginning of my audiophile journey. On one hand, you people saved me thousands of Euros. On the other hand, you basically nuked any "magic" in the audiophile pursuit. I quickly realized, that my sensory organs are the limiting factor and that spending more and more on better and better equipment won't make a sonic difference, since my ears simply aren't good enough.

While it is okay for me as a scientific minded engineer, that's not a fun realization. It's much more palatable to see the equipment as a limitation rather than yourself. Many people will not want to come to such a conclusion. They will fight tooth and nail and cling to their illusions and self proclaimed "golden ear prowess". Sales people standing to make a living are just all too happy to oblige.

 

[FrantzM]

Radical suggestion: realize that hi-res is pointless and default to 44.1khz and be happy forever.

+1

 

[Pluto]

Monsieur @edechamps – as an ASIO expert, are you able to confirm whether or not formal exclusivity is available within the ASIO specification (should the software creator choose to implement it) in the way that it is for WASAPI?

 

[edechamps]

are you able to confirm whether or not formal exclusivity is available within the ASIO specification (should the software creator choose to implement it) in the way that it is for WASAPI?

The ASIO spec doesn't say anything about exclusivity. A particular ASIO driver might only allow one ASIO application to stream at the same time, while another ASIO driver might allow several ASIO applications to stream at the same time, concurrently with non-ASIO applications or not. ASIO doesn't care, it's up to the driver implementation.

The ASIO application doesn't have a say in the matter. Note that this is different from WASAPI: in WASAPI, the application can choose between shared and exclusive mode. Not so in ASIO.

 

[KeithPhantom]

Right now I am using Foobar with WASAPI in exclusive mode (which is annoying every time I want to listen to another program). I only use it because there is a high amplitude hiss if I use Foobar with my external DAC in Windows Mixer mode, but despite that, I don't think you should hear a difference.

 

[Static Albatross]

Of the 10 I had tried 8 supported WASAPI exclusive. Only Windows Media Player and Grove do not.

Of the 8 that supported it 5 worked reasonably well. VLC requires manually setting bitrate or no audio, and the visualizer flashes in a manner I would think quite dangerous to an epileptic person. Resonic is unstable, in there defense the feature is listed as experimental. AIMP requires setting a bitrate, and seems to resample everything to that.

Of the 5 left none released control on pause. I don't remember the exact distribution of the other problems.

I really didn't expect to hear a difference, but I at least expected it to work. I hear people have a ton of problems with HDR in windows too though. Maybe I put too much faith in Microsoft.

The few tracks I have tried I couldn't hear a difference. Even if I could though the hassle wouldn't be worth it. Maybe in a few years if Microsoft gets their ducks in a row.

 

[KeithPhantom]

Of the 10 I had tried 8 supported WASAPI exclusive. Only Windows Media Player and Grove do not.

Of the 8 that supported it 5 worked reasonably well. VLC requires manually setting bitrate or no audio, and the visualizer flashes in a manner I would think quite dangerous to an epileptic person. Resonic is unstable, in there defense the feature is listed as experimental. AIMP requires setting a bitrate, and seems to resample everything to that.

Of the 5 left none released control on pause. I don't remember the exact distribution of the other problems.

I really didn't expect to hear a difference, but I at least expected it to work. I hear people have a ton of problems with HDR in windows too though. Maybe I put too much faith in Microsoft.

The few tracks I have tried I couldn't hear a difference. Even if I could though the hassle wouldn't be worth it. Maybe in a few years if Microsoft gets their ducks in a row.

I know, it's a mess and I am trying to figure out how to make WASAPI release the control after pausing.

 

[Static Albatross]

I know, it's a mess and I am trying to figure out how to make WASAPI release the control after pausing.

JRiver ended up supporting pausing. (EDIT: Now it is not, maybe it never did. I could be going completely crazy.) Do try to change the installation directory though. It breaks. Worse it deletes every file in that directory when you uninstall it. Maybe the secret to a good time is just spending $700 on roon?

 

[Vincent Kars]

Does anyone even bother using exclusive mode?

I do.

All operating systems do support multiple audio streams.
Windows is no exception to this rule.
You are e.g. watching a video but don’t want to miss an email notification.

You can only listen to multiple audio streams when they are mixed.
You can only mix if the streams are exactly the same (same bit depth, same sample rate, same number of channels, same format (PCM).

This is what Win does for you using DS (Direct Sound= WASAPI shared)

I don’t like a system sound or any other one when listening to a string quartet.
I do like automatic sample rate switching as I don’t like my audio to be resampled twice.
That is what WASAPI exclusive does for me.

 

[Pluto]

I am trying to figure out how to make WASAPI release the control after pausing

It's a fairly common convention that PAUSE will not release the audio subsystem but STOP will.

 

[Pluto]

VLC requires manually setting bitrate or no audio

Did you discover how to make VLC use WASAPI? It's a bit obscure but, nonetheless, I don't believe it supports WASAPI's exclusive option.

I have never known VLC not set the sample rate correctly.

 

[Pluto]

Right now I am using Foobar with WASAPI in exclusive mode (which is annoying every time I want to listen to another program).

Why? Press STOP and Foobar releases its grip on the audio subsystem.

 

[Aerith Gainsborough]

I hear people have a ton of problems with HDR in windows too though.

Suffice it to say: HDR on the desktop does not work for me at all. Even with Window's HDR mode etc, videos look oversaturated and incorrect.
It does work well in 3D applications though. Shadow of the Tomb Raider an Destiny 2 were quite the treat to look at.

If I want to watch HDR videos, I leave it to my TV by putting it on a USB stick (despite using said TV as my monitor).

Regarding WASAPI exclusive (push, my soundcard is not compatible with event), foobar 1.4.4 retains control when I [pause] but releases control when I [stop] the playback. Tested with VLC and Chrome browser using Youtube.

I don’t like a system sound or any other one when listening to a string quartet.

Understandable, esp when you listen at higher volume and systems sounds are somehow 10x the volume of your player. *chuckles*
I tend to deactivate any sort of notification audio on any program. I do not like my systems making noises. Visual indicators are sufficient.
That goes for smartphones as well, with the only exception of a direct phone call, since I need to respond in real time.