Ramblings, opinions, thoughts, Musings on Audio Reproduction

[FrantzM]

Hi

I have written somewhere that I am looking for an (kind-of .. people What's the fun in ending the search???? mhhh???!!! ) end-game speaker/system. I am dreaming some about the Linkwitz LX 521.4 .. I haven't heard it (could be soon ) but ...
The speaker in kit form, is about $2500, yes people you read it right... complete with DSP, the drivers , the CNC-cut-wood pieces and connectors and screws and people on a forum to help out ... You need some, not much elbow grease ... A bit of patience too and the willingness to work with your hands.. Power tools not even required if you buy the <$2500 complete KIT!!!! From what I have read it is in the class of anything out there at any price ...
I have everything to make this happen (suitable amp, Cables ) , except the room .. My room is too small according to SL ... We are building a much larger man-cave but it will take a few months ... In the meantime I may just grab a LX Mini +2

Then I stumbled upon the latest (free, . courtesy of Amazon Prime Unlimited) issue of Stereophile and I had to shake my head in disbelief.. I started reading at a John Atkinson "editorial", a paean to the Spiral of ever Higher prices ... glanced at the prices of the gear reviewed in the magazine. Wow! .. So many of us have been taken for the ride, thoroughly enjoying it. Masochism? No!! Ignorance , and please perdon this expression, CULTIVATED Ignorance A systematic push toward blunting one's critical thinking abilities. No better definition for Brainwashing.
Tangentially it made me realize how even the most intelligent , astute, cultivated , educated among us can be brainwashed ... to the point of utter stupidity, in direct contrast to increased knowledge, education and critical thinking ...

 

[cjfrbw]

Here's my latest DIY speaker monster in Santa Cruz:

It's a 9x11 room (second vacation home), 28 year old Apogee Stage speakers. Bass panels can't be replaced, and I have operated them with an active crossover. Bass panels became rattling and insensitive and just didn't sound good. I cut back the defective bass panel ribbon and stuck a pair of Audio Nirvana 12 inch full range speakers right on the magnets (open at back for dipole open baffle), and use an Accuphase L1500 active crossover to equalize speaker elements for disparate sensitivities. The midrange ribbon and foil tweeter can still be used. How does it sound in the small room? With Wavac SET on the AN driver and VFET on the midrange ribbon, it sounds magnificent. It throws an image all the way through the back wall into my neighbor's driveway.
It's a weird Frankenstein DIY Fugly that actually works, and kept me from having to trash the Apogees.

 

[FrantzM]

This was was inspired by this excellent thread from Amir about Bass Optimization ...

Hi
My present system are in a state of constant flux due to experimentations and the lack of a dedicated space: We are building a new house and conducting reamenagements in another in the meantimes ... so.

We favor in Haiti rooms that are open, very open to the outside. Lot of open windows (necessary with the heat and a Power commercial grid that provides when you're lucky about 5 hours of AC a day ... So Air Conditioned is run when there is commercial AC Power or one turns on an AC generator, mine is "silent" but does its running at 65 dB nonetheless ... It has to be in the backyard but still I can hear it humming and it makes no sense to always turn on both a generator and Air Conditioning when you listen to music... You open the Windows to enjoy the cool breeze (we live in the mountains) ... My previous rooms were all closed with the last one been practically a concrete bunker .. The current one is wide open... THis may explain the surprising reproduction I am getting from my LSR308 plus bucket subs system. This may have to do with the room being so open ... Typically the audiophile prefer his/her dedicated room to be a closed room and this seems to bring a more challenging distribution of room nodes .. The type of rooms favored in tropical countries may actually be an advantage ... This needs to be investigated ..
My audiophile world is been turned upside open or in that case blown wide open . Long Held tenets are being shattered by real Science, experience and a more sensible approach: Using Science as much as possible to get results and fiscal discipline (a very conscious decision to spend less money) I would like to hear your points on the open space room experiences if any ... Opening up the windows or building a room with large opening to the outside or at least other rooms, may have its advantages .. If your neighborhood is quiet .. What do you think People? What are your experiences?

 

[noobie1]

To this day have a soft spot for a >$20K German stereo amplifier which will remain nameless ...

Thanks for your perspective. As someone who thoroughly enjoyed a $500 system (Infinity P363, Denon Receiver, Sonarworks) for many years but is looking into higher end gear, your experience is insightful. By the way, is the German amplifier a Burmester 911 by any chance? The system I heard and want to build featured Burmester 911 and I’ve been wondering if there are any cheaper amps that can provide a similar visceral experience.

 

[Burning Sounds]

Hi

I have written somewhere that I am looking for an (kind-of .. people What's the fun in ending the search???? mhhh???!!! ) end-game speaker/system. I am dreaming some about the Linkwitz LX 521.4 .. I haven't heard it (could be soon ) but ...
The speaker in kit form, is about $2500, yes people you read it right... complete with DSP, the drivers , the CNC-cut-wood pieces and connectors and screws and people on a forum to help out ... You need some, not much elbow grease ... A bit of patience too and the willingness to work with your hands.. Power tools not even required if you buy the <$2500 complete KIT!!!! From what I have read it is in the class of anything out there at any price ...
I have everything to make this happen (suitable amp, Cables ) , except the room .. My room is too small according to SL ... We are building a much larger man-cave but it will take a few months ... In the meantime I may just grab a LX Mini +2

Then I stumbled upon the latest (free, . courtesy of Amazon Prime Unlimited) issue of Stereophile and I had to shake my head in disbelief.. I started reading at a John Atkinson "editorial", a paean to the Spiral of ever Higher prices ... glanced at the prices of the gear reviewed in the magazine. Wow! .. So many of us have been taken for the ride, thoroughly enjoying it. Masochism? No!! Ignorance , and please perdon this expression, CULTIVATED Ignorance A systematic push toward blunting one's critical thinking abilities. No better definition for Brainwashing.
Tangentially it made me realize how even the most intelligent , astute, cultivated , educated among us can be brainwashed ... to the point of utter stupidity, in direct contrast to increased knowledge, education and critical thinking ...

I'd go with what the man says if you can.....my room just meets the minimum size, but is narrower than what I would like. Distance from behind the LX521s to the front wall is no problem (more than 6ft in my case) and distance behind my seating position to the rear wall is no problem either, but I can only just manage the minimum 3ft to nearest side walls. The speakers still completely disappear and provide a wonderful soundstage and imaging, but I have had them in a larger room at a local hifi get together a few years ago and they do like space.

 

[FrantzM]

Thanks for your perspective. As someone who thoroughly enjoyed a $500 system (Infinity P363, Denon Receiver, Sonarworks) for many years but is looking into higher end gear, your experience is insightful. By the way, is the German amplifier a Burmester 911 by any chance? The system I heard and want to build featured Burmester 911 and I’ve been wondering if there are any cheaper amps that can provide a similar visceral experience.

Yes, it is the Burmester 911... . I believe however that with care ne can achieve even better results with less dear gears..

I'd go with what the man says if you can.....my room just meets the minimum size, but is narrower than what I would like. Distance from behind the LX521s to the front wall is no problem (more than 6ft in my case) and distance behind my seating position to the rear wall is no problem either, but I can only just manage the minimum 3ft to nearest side walls. The speakers still completely disappear and provide a wonderful soundstage and imaging, but I have had them in a larger room at a local hifi get together a few years ago and they do like space.

I may acquire an LX Mini in the meantimes but I need some SPL and bass ... The LX Studio seems to be more expensive than the LX521.4 .. Puzzling but this is the case ...

@everyone

My LSR + bucket subs system is good .. being an audiophile I am a bit unsatisfied with the mid-bass reproduction . System goes low with authority and SPL to spare. I have checked 90 dB at 20 Hz .. I would say it is flat from 20 to 100 Hz within plus or minus 5 db ... The mid-bass appears to be weak and coming from a less potent driver ... to my ears. I was about to measure it .. The darn USB to mini_USB cable gave up so no measurements for now .. I do believe there are some problems on that front .. We'll see.. err... measure. Then correct
We tend to focus on the extremes: Treble extension and Bass extension... We do at times forget the very important mid-bass, especially the so-important 100 to 200 hz region: it is not easy to get right. I now better understand DallasJustice (obsessive??? mhhh? ) approach to bass reproduction. I will read his system more and ask more questions along the way. I do have a reference midbass reproduction in my head and to this day few speakers I've heard approach it .. That of the Dunleavy systems. From the Duntech to the Dunleavy-branded ones. They had what some have called "authority" that few speakers manage to this day. This creates a sense of presence, of being there to the reproduction.
So another fun time in front of me , i have ordered the cable.. may purchase Acourate or Aoculense and we'll take it from there and report here if you do care...

 

[FrantzM]

Hi

Well the Pre/Pro fell from a shelf where it was placed during a room renovation and is ruined.. won't turn on .. faceplate is scratched .. I may try to repair it ... In the meantime I brought back to duties an Old Rotel prepro acquired on eBay along with its companion 5-channel amplifier.. This prepro has no HDMI ...

It will suffice for now. I am about to order something with balanced output (or not) from https://www.accessories4less.com/ ...

This post is about remote controls:

I believe that manufacturers have done themselves a disservice for years. Those systems are simply too complicated to use. We, the enthusiasts, have no issue manipulating 3~ 4 remotes ... Or a remote with more button than a commercial jet cockpit ... The truth of the matter is Audio/Video system remote controlling sucks hard and bad...
Take an example in our bedroom? There is a 60" Samsung TV and I paired it with a Yamaha Soundbar ... one of those YSP. in the bedroom it works wonders ... but when my fiancee just want to watch the news or doesn't want surround .. she has to navigate through two remotes ... and a chain of commands that is not straightforward ..It should be more simple.. In these days and age an app with a few questions such as do you want TV sound or Soundbar sound , that would automatically configure all necessary input, mode and outputs on all devices involved and present a simple GUI for Vol up, Vol down and chanel selection ... Not asking people to delve into ridiculously long chain of commands on remotes ...

I have no experience with AMX, Crestron, Control 4 or equivalent. The last time I looked at AMX and Crestron, their prices were on the order of the AV system itself .. specialized items handled and installed by expensive professionals.. if one cannot afford them then you're out of luck.. You jump in to the Logitech Harmony Ecosystem thinking you got it but .. soon you realize that they are not real solutions ..
What do you think ?

 

[FrantzM]

On this .. The Rotel PrePro is RCA only and not HDMI ... No switching but I don't mind that .. yet ..
I have several XLR cables for the JBL LSRs .. I need a quick and dirty way to make XLR at the JBL LSR end and RCA at the PRePRo cables. I will use some extra premade cables I have laying around, I just want to solder RCA connectors and be done ... I can always revert to XLR if needs be.. I don't mind a bit of soldering and elbow grease .. I could google it but this is the ASR ... so ....

 

[Wombat]

Re audio reproduction. I have never seen an LP or CD reproduce even when in intimate contact with another.

 

[jsrtheta]

There is that saying: "Good judgment comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgment."

In audio, it might read: "Good Audio comes from experience. Experience comes from a great deal of meaningless and sometimes extravagant spending."

The more you 'learn' about audio, the better you will be at being able to get a 'high end' sound, MacGyver like, from more common and less glitzy components, perhaps vintage and the great audio pieces from the past.

Being curator of an expensive and flashy pile is no longer of interest to me, but is also no longer necessary. For some, it may be necessary, and that is fine with me, too, I love to visit.
(Sez me, still with a pretty extravagant pile, but eclectic and hodge podge).

Jesus, I wish I had learned this about 20 years ago.

 

[jsrtheta]

Hear, hear.

I find the most helpful information I have received is what not to expect. A DAC will not make a dramatic difference. Ditto amps, preamps, cables, etc.
This is actually pretty simple shit, and you can trust measurements. In Alcoholics Anonymous, they stress how elementary the problem is, and you can take the same approach to audio. (NB: I am not endorsing AA.) What works, what doesn't.

Did that Yamaha integrated, run as a pure power amp, sound different from my Krell power amp? Really? No, to be honest. One just made the sound bigger. Does the $1500 CD player really sound better than the $200 CD player? No, of course it doesn't. The technical performance may differ, but the sound doesn't.

This is the insansity of the "high end." There are a lot reasons to buy "high end": Pride of ownership, more advanced features, confidence the component will last longer, etc. But it is silly to expect the laws of physics to change based on the investment. They don't.

 

[FrantzM]

Hi

After having used the Integra Pr/Pro for a few days before its untimely demise , I must say that Audyssey EQ HT borders on the incredible... I believe in multiple subs... I have heard what multiple subs can do in many systems .. It take work, lot of work... tedious, frustrating hours of work ... With results that only suggest that you are going in the right direction but ...no guarantee when ... I believe a manual , learned approach in subwoofer calibration and linearization may surpass the performance of Audyssey EQ HT ... In the here and now it is the easiest and it works

 

[FrantzM]

This post was inspired by my wanting to produce better bass in my HT. I currently use the so-called "bucket-subs" they have taught me a lot but will be replaced by better DIY subs. What has been clear for these past months to me is how much technology today is available and most importantly how affordable it is.


One can get at a ridiculous price (for FREE!!!) a powerful measuring and system analysis software : REW. It may not be perfect (it is for all practical for I) but this software put in the hobbyist hands a set of tools that would have cost undred of thousands of dollars only 25 years ago.
One can get a superb measurements microphone for $100. Comparison between those sub-$100 microphones and those costing up to $3000 reveals that for the hobbyist and even professional , results are virtually identical. One can omit "virtually" in the preceding statement...
One can get a transparent DAC for $<500 and even at $100. The level of distortion of today's better DACs is so low that .. Well let's use the trademarked shoutometer.. that the level of THD is equivalent to someone talking to you at one meter and another (the THD) simultaneously shouting from 90 miles away .... If you are not a golden-eared audiophile with at least a $50,000 amp and a similarly priced DAC with the appropriate $15,000 USB cable , you simply can't hear the distortions produced by those DACs ( Khardas board, Topping, Oppo, Auralic, etc...)
One can get at less than $1000 a software that corrects your audio system thoroughly in spite of acoustic issues in your room... Accourate, Audiolense, DIRAC, etc...
There are Free Room Correction software .. They are not for the faint of heart.
There are other examples ... Roon, Tidal, Qobuz, Spotify, etc . More music than you have days in your life to listen ... And please keep in mind that 320 kbps mp3 is virtually transparent ... Most people can't hear the differences between that and the original .wav files. That includes the audiophiles with half a million dollars of audio equipment.

Electronics are no longer the issue. it is best for the hobbyist to put that in their minds. Focus on the speakers and the room. That is where the action is and has been since since the early 80's but then we saw ( at least I saw) Julian Hirsch as the devil incarnate to dare say that mostly all amps sound the same.

We are living a golden age in Audio. A substantial level of fidelity can be obtained for not much (JBL LSR, Mackie , Kali, etc) . The dark spot remains the abuse by those who produce music. There is no reason to compress that much. There are perhaps reason to autotune (Britney Spears would not exist if it weren't for that piece of software) .. Else ..
Measuring your room and correcting it is no easy task, It requires lot of learning, reading, discussing, trial and lot of errors... Frustration, discouragements.. but it if you persist the results can be sublime and at not such a dear price.
We need to re-educate, to clean out ourselves and remove the remain of years of misdirections and false information... Current technology will reward us with more music and truly accurate and enjoyable reproduction

 

[Eurasian]

This was was inspired by this excellent thread from Amir about Bass Optimization ...

Hi
My present system are in a state of constant flux due to experimentations and the lack of a dedicated space: We are building a new house and conducting reamenagements in another in the meantimes ... so.

We favor in Haiti rooms that are open, very open to the outside. Lot of open windows (necessary with the heat and a Power commercial grid that provides when you're lucky about 5 hours of AC a day ... So Air Conditioned is run when there is commercial AC Power or one turns on an AC generator, mine is "silent" but does its running at 65 dB nonetheless ... It has to be in the backyard but still I can hear it humming and it makes no sense to always turn on both a generator and Air Conditioning when you listen to music... You open the Windows to enjoy the cool breeze (we live in the mountains) ... My previous rooms were all closed with the last one been practically a concrete bunker .. The current one is wide open... THis may explain the surprising reproduction I am getting from my LSR308 plus bucket subs system. This may have to do with the room being so open ... Typically the audiophile prefer his/her dedicated room to be a closed room and this seems to bring a more challenging distribution of room nodes .. The type of rooms favored in tropical countries may actually be an advantage ... This needs to be investigated ..
My audiophile world is been turned upside open or in that case blown wide open . Long Held tenets are being shattered by real Science, experience and a more sensible approach: Using Science as much as possible to get results and fiscal discipline (a very conscious decision to spend less money) I would like to hear your points on the open space room experiences if any ... Opening up the windows or building a room with large opening to the outside or at least other rooms, may have its advantages .. If your neighborhood is quiet .. What do you think People? What are your experiences?

I remember reading somewhere that Roger Sanders of InnerSound/Sanders Sound listens to his speakers in his garage in Colorado. Apparently, he positions them so that they are just inside the open garage door aimed at the listening position so that the backwave is lost to the outdoors. I guess that this also minimizes many of the bass nodes as well as providing fantastic imaging.

 

[Willem]

There are two clasic ways to measure low frequency response. One is in a large anechoic chamber, the other is on a large pole in th eopen air. That way you completely remove room modes from the equation. What you are also missing is the room reinforcement of lower frequencies, so what is flat in the open air will have an upward sloping bass response in any real room.

 

[Willem]

My first audio system, in the mid 1970's, was a Quad system: Quad 33-303 amplifier and Quad ELS 57 speakers. Those were the days of serious technical reviews with measurements, done by audio engineers. The sonic quality of my system was obvious, both objectively and subjectively. A few years later the subjectivists started to raise their heads, and in England, where I was living at the time, this included diatribes against the sonic qualities of Peter Walker's (Quad) current dumping amplifier design. The argument was that the earlier Quad 303 was better, and its valve predecessor better again. Therefore, Peter Walker created a demo rig for blind comparisons (using studio master tapes as a source). One day he invited me to a private demo, and on hearing some music samples, I thought I could tell the differences. With develish pleasure he demonstared that I had not been better than random. Lesson learned.
I have never suffered from audiphilia nervosa, so I have only replaced components very slowly. The ELS 57 speakers were replaced about a decade ago by Quad 2805s, but those clearly needed more powerful amplification, and all the more so since we had moved into a rather larger house with a large open plan listening room. I bought a completely refurbished 2x140 watt Quad 606-2. At low levels there was no difference with the 2x45 watt Quad 303, but playing dynamic music at higher levels showed the superiority of bigger power. It was only last week that I also changed the almost fifty year old (refurbished) Quad 33 preamplifier with a Pioneer U-05 DAC/preamplifier. It does sound marginally more detailed, but only on high quality modern recordings. I am not sure if the difference is from the better DAC compared to the inbuilt DACs of my Chromecast Audio, cheap BD player and older plasma TV, or whether the pre amplifier part is actually audibly better. The truth is probably that both contribute a little bit.
The move to a much bigger house/listening room had also persuaded me to add a subwoofer. This was quite a disappointment (more bass, but woolly) until I added an Antimode 8033 room eq unit. This made a really big difference, with cleaner and better integrated bass, and was the best audio investment I ever made, after buying my first pair of electrostats in the 1970's, and after buying one of the first Philips CD players in the early 1980's.
Admittedly this is pretty expensive gear, but only because of the electrostatic speakers (total cost of DAC, preamp, power amp, dsp room eq and cables was 1150 euro, or some $1300). In my study at home I have a rather more modest system that shows what can be done on a much smaller budget: desktop computer as a source, into an ODAC usb DAC, into an Emotiva Control Freak volume control, into a refurbished 2x100 watt Quad 405-2 amplifier, into a pair of Harbeth P3ESR speakers (total cost of electronics euro 350, or $400). So, of this high quality set up only the speakers cost serious money, but for that you get near-electrostatic clarity (and they are a lot cheaper in Europe than in the US).
Finally, there is our bedroom system. The source is a Chromecast Audio, amplified by an Ava Maestro 50 chip amp with digital input, and now Q Acoustics 3010 speakers (bought for euro 165 a pair in a sale). The quality of these speakers is remarkably good, and much better than the (broken) Wharfedale Diamond 9.0s that they replaced. The budget end seems to be where the biggest improvements have occured, even though the small Harbeths are miles ahead (and should be, of course).
So the simple lesson that can be learned, here and elsewhere, is that electronics does not have to be expensive and as long as it is adequate it does not contribute to the sound quality. What matters is speakers, and for deep bass reproduction also their integration into the room.

 

[FrantzM]

Hi
Revising this old thread, I was expecting it to be more active .. Oh Well..

I am at an interesting crossroad right now. I am very satisfied with my HT system consisting of
3 JBL LSR 308 for LCR $750 (for the 3)via Amazon
2 JBL LSR 305 for surrounds $300 (for a pair)
2 Bose 161 for Atmos ceiling speakers $150
Denon AVR-X3400H $800
Audyssey XT32 App $200
miniDSP 2 x 4 HD $200
Apple TV 4K $180
Samsung Blu Ray Player $30 facepalm
BenQ 2050A PJ $750
Some generic Electric Screen soon to be replaced by a Stewart... $500
3 Parts Express SUB-1500 subwoofers $600 *Total shipped to the USA)
Room is concrete. untreated save for some drapes and furniture.

For HT , this system is satisfying. I would recommend anyone that is serious in movies watching to consider something similar. It plays clean at up to 90 dB and can reach 110 dB at the listening position... It reaches 17 Hz at 100 dB, I measured but it was shaking too many things, I didn't want to go higher. The system could be distorting over 95 dB, I wouldn't know because I can't enjoy anything that loud for any length of time.. . I am in a bit of a renovation but promise I will post measurements. and perhaps some screenshots .. We are about measurements here at ASR..

This system has made me realize that for subwoofer, high output and low distortion are key, not linear FR in a quasi or true anechoic situation. I do not subscribe to the notion of "Room Gain", a debate in itself, but the room may at times, help the subwoofer... I am here supposing more than one sub. It is quite possible to obtain decent results with one sub but the best results are obtained with 2, preferably 3. Four max, beyond that you are reaching the point of diminishing returns, Toole, Devantier and Olive have demonstrated it in their papers. Geddes posit 3. The subs need not be the best, you can actually use different subs, if I had to do it over, considering what the 2 and 3rd subs are in term of level , I would go with one Sub1500 and two (2) 10 inch Parts Express, I don't know what the Parts Express are in term of linearity of FR but their output in their passband is substantial. Another thing is to place one sub, the most potent one in a front corner, seems ot increase the output in the room substantially, not at all all frequencies but this with the way the modes play in a room contributes greatly to increase output in the bass. Keep in mind that the response will be very uneven with that lone sub.. but ... but we are using other subs.. and DSP and Audyssey so it can be made quite linear... then you apply a Audyssey "house curve" ...

I am very pleased by this system. I don't see myself fighting to get better audio for my movies. The video side however, I would have liked better shadow defintion and details, seems this come at a substantial jump in PJ price. I'll keep the 2050 for a while I guess. It doesn't bother me that much .. yet
I have a slew of good headphones and they have spoiled me, The system in spite of its good audio performance in movies doesn't satisfy me for music, I am back listening to my headphones much more. This system , even when played in 2 channels plus subs ... is not close to any of the headphones I have .. not by a mile... thus I am building a different 2-channel (plus SUBS of course ) system based on a mixture of old and new:

Yamaha NS-1000M
miniDSP SHD Studio + Some Hypex amps or perhaps miniDSP SHD Power
2 or 3 SVS SB-1000 subs or Rythmik equivalent
A complet loom (IC, USB, Digital< speaker and power) of cables from Fono Acustica
in a mildly treated room that is under construction. 6 x 4 x 2.8 meter

I will share the progress with you...

 

[FrantzM]

Revisiting this thread...

I didn't go the NS1000M way. it would have been too expensive for nostalgia sake and there were no garantee that it would be superior to what I currently have:

3 JBL LSR 308 for LCR $750 (for the 3)via Amazon
2 JBL LSR 305 for surrounds $300 (for a pair)
2 Bose 161 for Atmos ceiling speakers $150
Denon AVR-X3400H $800
Audyssey XT32 App $200
miniDSP 2 x 4 HD $200
Apple TV 4K $180
Samsung Blu Ray Player $30 facepalm
BenQ 2050A PJ $750
Some generic Electric Screen soon to be replaced by a Stewart... $500
3 Parts Express SUB-1500 subwoofers $600 *Total shipped to the USA)

I was about to order a Smasung >80 inch Q-LED but had a almost side by side comparison between my 55 inch LG LED and a Q-LED or NanoLED (can't remember, the designation) and my LG OLED was superior, by far. I will wait a little bit for new LG models and hopefully better prices, and string for the largest LG OLED but back to the Audio portion.

I use the miniDSP 2x4 HD to linearize the output of the 2-Dayton Audio SUB1500 subwoofers. I used the MMM (Moving Microphone Measurements) for the best bass (read most linear) from the 2 subwoofers. One in the left corner of the toom, the other about on the opposite wall and about 1.5 meter in the back of the MLP. Biquads were calculated by REW and entered in the mniDSP. This was used as the sole subwoofer for Audyssey.
I am stunned by what I am getting from this system, to the extent of needing to hear a better system to have an idea of what I would be missing because.... I don't seem to be missing much . Hyperbole to be sure but the system sounds very good if you limit its output to 95 dB. I no longer feel the need to go past 90 dB, these days.. so I got Deep bass is well, deep, highs .. extended to the limit of my hearing...

It is the time of the year when I have a need of self-gifting. Budget is flexible but I have become, thanks to ASR, a tightwad. The less spent on Audio ,the better...
I am thinking , perhaps.
1) Better speakers? JBL 708p? Mmmhh? Budget around $4000...
2) or ... Better Subwoofers? In my small concrete room, a pair of SVS PB2000 or Rythmik equivalent? Budget around $1600
3) Or Get the Audyssey Windows APP? I am not comfortable with the Audyssey non-transferable policy.. but it is only $200 and IME, proper EQ/ DRC brings most systems to a different level
Stay put... Budget = $0.00

I listen to music in 2-channel. Movies in multichannel. The room is concrete x 3.4 x 28 meter give or take a few inches. It is my man-cave, lightly treated and dark grey.


Looking for your input and commentaries.
Happy Holidays!

Peace


Woul

 

[Pattern]

More ...

In the meantime , i got a kef LS50 and drove it with an expensive German amplifier .. I tried to mate it with some subs ,relying on the subs controls .. Results were bad .. No fault of the kef really but rather of my own self. Had I used two subs with an mini DAP or something similar, might (would) have brought better results... To my mind the LSR 308s please me more but frankly are not as refined-sounding as the Kef (Can't express it any better , sorry ).
I am going to audition an 8c .. It could be a game changer too ..

Ls50s and subs are peanut butter and jelly. But it's not much of a sandwich without the bread. Bread here being either a lot of REW work or a Dirac calibration. Makes all the difference in the world.

 

[Old Listener]

Revisiting this thread...

I didn't go the NS1000M way. it would have been too expensive for nostalgia sake and there were no garantee that it would be superior to what I currently have:


I was about to order a Smasung >80 inch Q-LED but had a almost side by side comparison between my 55 inch LG LED and a Q-LED or NanoLED (can't remember, the designation) and my LG OLED was superior, by far. I will wait a little bit for new LG models and hopefully better prices, and string for the largest LG OLED but back to the Audio portion.

I use the miniDSP 2x4 HD to linearize the output of the 2-Dayton Audio SUB1500 subwoofers. I used the MMM (Moving Microphone Measurements) for the best bass (read most linear) from the 2 subwoofers. One in the left corner of the toom, the other about on the opposite wall and about 1.5 meter in the back of the MLP. Biquads were calculated by REW and entered in the mniDSP. This was used as the sole subwoofer for Audyssey.
I am stunned by what I am getting from this system, to the extent of needing to hear a better system to have an idea of what I would be missing because.... I don't seem to be missing much . Hyperbole to be sure but the system sounds very good if you limit its output to 95 dB. I no longer feel the need to go past 90 dB, these days.. so I got Deep bass is well, deep, highs .. extended to the limit of my hearing...

It is the time of the year when I have a need of self-gifting. Budget is flexible but I have become, thanks to ASR, a tightwad. The less spent on Audio ,the better...
I am thinking , perhaps.
1) Better speakers? JBL 708p? Mmmhh? Budget around $4000...
2) or ... Better Subwoofers? In my small concrete room, a pair of SVS PB2000 or Rythmik equivalent? Budget around $1600
3) Or Get the Audyssey Windows APP? I am not comfortable with the Audyssey non-transferable policy.. but it is only $200 and IME, proper EQ/ DRC brings most systems to a different level
Stay put... Budget = $0.00

I listen to music in 2-channel. Movies in multichannel. The room is concrete x 3.4 x 28 meter give or take a few inches. It is my man-cave, lightly treated and dark grey.


Looking for your input and commentaries.

I think that you have done well building a very capable system using inexpensive components. I imagine that you feel a lot of satisfaction from this project. Do you expect comparable satisfaction from the upgrades you are considering?

1) Maybe worthwhile. Might sound cleaner due to lower distortion.If I were spending ~ $4000, I'd consider the Neumann KH-310a in addition to the JBL 708. I chose to limit my budget to $ 2300 and selected Dynaudio LYD-48s. I have no regrets about that decision.

A thought about ported speakers. We think of the JBL 708 as a two way speaker. However, when you look at measurements, you see three separate audio outputs: tweeter, woofer and port. In that sense, it is a 3-way system. The output from the drivers can be controlled by DSP. Port output can't be controlled directly by DSP.

The KH301s don't have a port; they are a 3-way sealed box design. So, which design (ported or sealed with an extra driver) provides a designer with better control over speaker performance?

2) You did careful setup with the Dayton subwoofers. Adding one or two more expensive woofers while keeping the Dayton subwoofers might provide a good basis for a project to provide more uniform and clean bass. I have sometimes wondered whether a multiple subwoofer setup could provide sound that is free of room mode sound entirely.

3). I don't know anything about Audyssey products. What benefits would you get from the Audyssey Windows APP. It sounded as though you are already using Audyssey to tune bass output.