JSmith
Master Contributor
Rubbish.
DAC's and amps do not have this... unless one has an effects box instead.
JSmith
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R2R DACs are on a roll- New Fiio K13 R2R Balanced DAC
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JSmith
No configurable sub out = zero interest from me.
Are you referring to the second RCA out being used for a Sub?
And were you thinking configurable using 1 set RCA for low pass and 1 for high pass?
Are both RCA outputs on the K13 controlled when using it as a preamp? Or was this aimed at having one RCA out to a separate headphone amp and the other out to an integrated amp for speakers?
Tonton_ZEeD
Member
Hello everyone,
I'm curious about R2R DACs and their sonic differences. I was interested in the Fiio K11 R2R, but I passed on it because it doesn't have a balanced output.
My headphones system relies on a 3-in/3-out balanced switch. The Laiv Mini was the solution, but it's quite expensive.
My speaker amplifier is connected via the SE output of my current DAC, a Topping D30pro.
The K13 R2R has a balanced output, so this might be a good option. I have a question: is it possible to use both the balanced and SE outputs simultaneously?
Balanced output to my switch, SE output to my speaker amplifier.
Sorry for my bad english
I'm curious about R2R DACs and their sonic differences. I was interested in the Fiio K11 R2R, but I passed on it because it doesn't have a balanced output.
My headphones system relies on a 3-in/3-out balanced switch. The Laiv Mini was the solution, but it's quite expensive.
My speaker amplifier is connected via the SE output of my current DAC, a Topping D30pro.
The K13 R2R has a balanced output, so this might be a good option. I have a question: is it possible to use both the balanced and SE outputs simultaneously?
Balanced output to my switch, SE output to my speaker amplifier.
Sorry for my bad english
fredreadrick
Member
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- Jan 25, 2024
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Yes, the FiiO K13 can output from both its XLR and RCA line outputs simultaneously.Hello everyone,
I'm curious about R2R DACs and their sonic differences. I was interested in the Fiio K11 R2R, but I passed on it because it doesn't have a balanced output.
My headphones system relies on a 3-in/3-out balanced switch. The Laiv Mini was the solution, but it's quite expensive.
My speaker amplifier is connected via the SE output of my current DAC, a Topping D30pro.
The K13 R2R has a balanced output, so this might be a good option. I have a question: is it possible to use both the balanced and SE outputs simultaneously?
Balanced output to my switch, SE output to my speaker amplifier.
Sorry for my bad english
Tonton_ZEeD
Member
Thank you !
Out of curiosity would include tubes in this statement? Just have been a long time lurker and given you are one of the most knowledgeable and prolific posters I want to better understand you view point
Why, because they don't "measure well" .. ffs
Quite, everyone knows that only R2R dacs bring the live musicians ( even the dead ones) into your living room.
Keith
Keith
oleg87
Addicted to Fun and Learning
Unless you're oversampling externally NOS is plainly not performing conversion correctly (as in, reconstructing something that looks like the sampled signal), so it's really quite a triumph of marketing over sense that your DAC being able to hose down downstream components with ultrasonic garbage has become a requisite feature.
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But… but everyone knows only R2R makes the reproduction more like being at the actual concert.
It’s not just droopy treble and a bit of distortion only they can reveal the ‘inner life’ of the music.
Keith
It’s not just droopy treble and a bit of distortion only they can reveal the ‘inner life’ of the music.
Keith
That sinad is an understatement. Look at all the high order harmonics, the 15th harmonic is almost as high as the second. This will sound even worse than other 72 sinad devices. Is this distortion pattern typical of R2R dacs?
Still likely inaudible at -85db.
Your statement is disingenuous, whether done on purpose or not. R2R conversion doesn't inherently produce droopy Treble or significant Distortion, certainly none that's audible. I own Three vintage Players with R2R Conversion, Two of which are based on the TDA1541A, and another employs a pair of the superb BB PCM63-J.
I assure you that there's no High-Frequency Roll-Off or any audible distortion on any of them, and All are hands down among the best sounding Players that I have ever owned. And I have owned, and still own, quite a few. Again, there's this conflation between R2R Conversion and the Filterless application of such technique, commonly known as NOS. One and the other are not the same, and this pissing contest on all things R2R is becoming quite tiresome...
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Absolutely designed properly R2R sounds as transparent as SD, its only purpose is an ‘audiophile’ affectation.
Keith
Keith
DSJR
Master Contributor
If the measurements don't tell the full story of audio frequency gear, let alone equipment working routinely in the MHz region (now THAT needs careful setup and testing), improve the measurements taken. This WAS done many decades back I believe and in second HiFi Choice amplifier books from the late 70's, had full frequency IMD charts for each tested amp going out to 100kHz I recall, most of the tested models rising alarmingly at high frequencies (look it up for yourself on worldradiohistory). Distortion was also typically in the -60s or -70s and judged 'good' at the time. As measurements went out of favour, the results in successive books were increasingly played right down, to the point that high end products (they're expensive and heavily cased, right?), were judged 'state of the art' yet had diabolical performance, the sonic effects added (early 80's ARC preamps especially) being regarded as a benefit I seem to recall...
What I think many 'audiophiles' don't realise and I feel it's worth repeating here, is that 'listening to the gear' isn't just about the ears of the listener. It's a multi-sensed experience - the venue where the listening is being done and the atmosphere/weather, the company involved, friends etc. if present, the health of the listener that day, the rig itself (the reputation of the products used, the cables, especially if fancy-foo priced as befits a high end system, what the gear LOOKS like and FEELS to the touch. I now feel and from many decades of experience with this, that ALL of this, plus other stuff I've forgotten to mention, goes towards what we think we 'hear' and our brains are wonderfully evolved tools to be able to do this. Once you start to experience this and have been deceived a few times in thinking there's a 'big' difference in an A-B comparison when in fact NOTHING has been changed, points of view along the lines many of us here feel, starts to fall into place (mine was accelerated with my hearing losses in recent years, so I can't at all rely on my hearing to judge anything really now
The 'fine details' we claim to hear in a recording, are arguably only 20dB or less down from the louder bits (how else can we perceive a good 'left-right' image from pickup cartridges with 20 - 25dB channel separation (appreciating that the best can do over 30dB in the upper midrange, but they vary a lot here)Also, I'd suggest that research into our human hearing and what we can *actually* perceive, has been going on even longer than audio equipment and the limitations of our hearing I think, has been pretty much understood for a very long time. I'd suggest our hearing is actually very poor compared to others in the animal kingdom and I was told that it's actually SIGHT that our brain uses most. Maybe this may give some indication as to why a *blind* A-B test can show no difference but a 'sighted' A-B comparison of the same pieces of gear show differences (as our brains and minds go mad into interpretation?)
Apologies for the essay above
Closing thought, an A-B file comparison of two differently mastered songs can make a louder more compressed mastering sound 'more vivid' where the raw un-compressed version sound bland and 'distant' unless the volume is corrected. I've done this on a 1974 album I like, the CD issues generally needing a bit of 'volume' to give some 'punch' to the sound, yet a 2007 remaster, sounds incredibly vivid and 'there' to me, an established tape drop out on one song (looks like a crease in the tape rather than oxide shedding maybe, but it's bloody annoying). I need to put said remastering into a wave-editor to see if it's in actual fact, a victim of the loudness war and actually compressed to high heaven!Did you really try to ABX them by ear or it is some kind of "personal decision"?
No because without the reconstruction filter the signal is not properly reconstructed. Usually with NOS there is no filter at all.
It’s simply a requirement for proper function , it’s a misconfiguration to omit it .
That it measures better is because the original signal is better preserved, it’s a by product of better function not a goal in itself .
You sure? The 3rd and 5th (nasty) are at -78 db. If you add all the components you get about -73db. Fletcher Muson says the distortion at 500hz from a 100hz signal will be 10db more audible. That makes the distortion seem like its at -63db at times. Cant say if thats audible but it its probably geting close.
You can use https://distortaudio.org/index.html to check for yourself , it will take only a few minutes
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