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R2R DACs are on a roll- New Fiio K13 R2R Balanced DAC

Makes little sense to me. More parts equates to more possible possible points of failure. Or out of value... Each to their own right?
 
Having just bought a SMSL D1 out of curiosity there really isn't anything different from "normal" DACs. It just plays slightly louder
 
It’s more like 12-but resolution, which coincidentally would match the relative standard 0.01% accuracy that you can get with thin film SMD resistors.
 
How does FiiO's software quality/PEQ implementation compare to Topping's?

Could do without the square-wheel DAC but I'm sure it's of little audible consequence either way.
 
boXem said:
They are not claiming 24 bits resolution;).
Click to expand...
Sorry, are you just F'in with me? It says 24-bit, but doesn't mean 24-bit resolution? Well, that was my point, wasn't it?

I quoted the relevant claim:

PRODUCT HIGHLIGHTS​

  • Fully-differential 24-bit R2R DAC with 192 precision resistors
On their website, they get more explicit, "true 24bit R2R DAC resistor arrays". Yeah, you'll probably say it's the resistor arrays that are true, but since they state the resistor tolerance is 0.1%, we must have a new definition of "true". This is about 12-bit?
 
voodooless said:
It’s more like 12-but resolution, which coincidentally would match the relative standard 0.01% accuracy that you can get with thin film SMD resistors.
Click to expand...
They claim their resistors arrays are 0.1%, on their website and Amazon page, which seems to match 12-bit (I didn't do the math, but I've seen the claim of 0.1% for 12-bit multiple places, I assume ± 0.5 lsb).

Their THD+N claim of 0.025% matches 12-bit, so they probably aren't lying except for the idea it's a 24-bit DAC in any practical sense.
 
earlevel said:
Sorry, are you just F'in with me? It says 24-bit, but doesn't mean 24-bit resolution? Well, that was my point, wasn't it?

I quoted the relevant claim:

PRODUCT HIGHLIGHTS​

  • Fully-differential 24-bit R2R DAC with 192 precision resistors
On their website, they get more explicit, "true 24bit R2R DAC resistor arrays". Yeah, you'll probably say it's the resistor arrays that are true, but since they state the resistor tolerance is 0.1%, we must have a new definition of "true". This is about 12-bit?
Click to expand...
Putting aside your completely inappropriate tone, it is a 24 bits DAC, because it is operating on 24 bits. Chips from ESS, AKM and friends are called 32 bits DACs because they operate on 32 bits, at least at their input, yet they do not have a resolution of 32 bits.
 
boXem said:
Putting aside your completely inappropriate tone, it is a 24 bits DAC, because it is operating on 24 bits. Chips from ESS, AKM and friends are called 32 bits DACs because they operate on 32 bits, at least at their input, yet they do not have a resolution of 32 bits.
Click to expand...
Why wasn't your tone inappropriate? They claimed to have a 24-bit DAC, yet you "correct" me that "they are not claiming 24 bits resolution". Do you see another number from them? I'm not angry, I'm baffled, couldn't figure out the purpose. Maybe it was just an offhand comment, but maybe it was because you didn't get my point—I wasn't sure.

BTW, the so-called "32-bit" DAC chips are doing 32-bit math, not even trying to generate 32 bits, that's a red herring.

Many of use here are fully aware that even 24 bit precision is not possible with the maximum output levels of the devices (and impractical if you tried to make a high output one that would keep the lsbit above the thermal noice floor).

However, we can make 20-bit precision routinely (and that already covers the ears well). So it's acceptable for me to point out that 0.1% resistors will only do about 12 bits. There are many people on this board who do not know that R2R ladders are heavily constrained in that regard, due to the practical consideration of manufacturing tolerances.

To put it another way, modern 24-bit DACs, and those supposed 32-bit chips, may not really put out the bits count they claim, but implemented correctly, they put out more precision that the human ear can differentiate. So I don't have problem with 24-bit claims the put out 20—the difference is unhearable. Would you agree to that? But a 0.1% R2R falls far short of the human ear. (The best practical R2R design would give the ear a run for the money, at least under normal listening conditions.)

So it's not just that they call it a 24-bit DAC "but so what, everyone does the same and don't deliver either". It's that they are calling it a 24-bit DAC knowing half the bits are garbage. Half. :)
 
Last edited:
I'm considering buying a DAC, and initially wanted to buy the Laiv micro DAC R2R, but now that I've heard about the upcoming sale of the Fiio K13 R2R, I'm not sure it's worth paying $1,000 for the Laiv, since the K13 is significantly cheaper and also has a built-in headphone amplifier. I'm interested in balanced XLR outputs, and the K13 has them too. I'd appreciate it if someone could compare the sound quality of the built-in DAC in these two devices.
 
Arktez said:
built-in headphone amplifier. I'm interested in balanced XLR outputs
Click to expand...
amirm

'Fosi ZH3 Balanced Headphone Amp & DAC Review'

This is a review, detailed measurements and listening test of Fosi ZH3 balanced stereo DAC and headphone amplifier/preamp. It was sent to me by the company. I can't find the price ($200?). It costs US $199.
Fosi Audio ZH3 All-in-One Desktop HiFi DAC Headphone Amp Preamp balanced review.jpg

The ZH3 is attractive and follows the design language of the newer Fosi products. I found the menu navigation with the front panel knob difficult. It would sometimes jump forward/back with little motion, other times it would take a few clicks. It was very frustrating. Fortunately the remote control doesn't have this issue. Back panel shows attractive set of...
  • Like


JSmith
 
JSmith said:
amirm

'Fosi ZH3 Balanced Headphone Amp & DAC Review'

This is a review, detailed measurements and listening test of Fosi ZH3 balanced stereo DAC and headphone amplifier/preamp. It was sent to me by the company. I can't find the price ($200?). It costs US $199.
Fosi Audio ZH3 All-in-One Desktop HiFi DAC Headphone Amp Preamp balanced review.jpg

The ZH3 is attractive and follows the design language of the newer Fosi products. I found the menu navigation with the front panel knob difficult. It would sometimes jump forward/back with little motion, other times it would take a few clicks. It was very frustrating. Fortunately the remote control doesn't have this issue. Back panel shows attractive set of...
  • Like


JSmith
Click to expand...
It is better than fiio K13? Also i need something with R2R because i like this type of sound. Now i have Fiio K11.
 
Arktez said:
Ok it is better in mearusements, but how it sounds when compared to k11 r2r or K13? More detail? More musical?
Click to expand...
There is no difference between DAC's

Willhelm_Scream

'How can DAC's have a SOUND SIGNATURE if they measure as transparent?'

I know there are people out there that think cables affect sound, which is much worse, but there really is no response to something like that, but just to smile and nod. But what about people who talk about DACS as if they were headphone drivers or speakers, and talk about the SOUNDSTAGE, IMAGING, and MIDRANGE of a DAC? I actually don't know what to say to people to not be rude. If you try explaining that a DAC isn't something that actually changes the sound, they accuse you of having "a hard-on for measurements", as if it were the measurements themselves that tell you that DACs don't...
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Svend P said:
There is no difference between DAC's

Willhelm_Scream

'How can DAC's have a SOUND SIGNATURE if they measure as transparent?'

I know there are people out there that think cables affect sound, which is much worse, but there really is no response to something like that, but just to smile and nod. But what about people who talk about DACS as if they were headphone drivers or speakers, and talk about the SOUNDSTAGE, IMAGING, and MIDRANGE of a DAC? I actually don't know what to say to people to not be rude. If you try explaining that a DAC isn't something that actually changes the sound, they accuse you of having "a hard-on for measurements", as if it were the measurements themselves that tell you that DACs don't...
  • Like
Click to expand...
How it is possible? I hear strong difference when replacing a DAC module in my xDuoo xd05 Pro from a disgusting ESS Sabre to AKM chip. ESS was too detalic compared to AKM chip. My headphones and speakers started to have more bassy, melodic and less detail sound with AKM.

Maybe i order ZH3 and K13 and test them myself.
 
Arktez said:
Maybe i order ZH3 and K13 and test them myself.
Click to expand...
The proof of the pudding is in the eating (tastes differ)

And you would not be 'testing' them. Amir tests them. You would do some subjective evaluation which, in the end, is all that matters... whatever brings a smile on your face regardless of how it tests or other people's opinions are.
 
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