R2R DACs are on a roll- New Fiio K13 R2R Balanced DAC

[Mnyb]

I can not confirm but it is a general truth for DSD to perform any DSP based operations like EQ it has to be converted to PCM .

If this product does this or not I can’t say for sure .

But EQ is vastly more important than keeping a specific file format so just convert everything to a suitable PCM format

 

[arrow0309]

How does this perform against the EF400? OS only and let alone any EQ.
Also how come they both have a similar SNR (A weighted) but the THD-N looks way better on the EF400 (according to Hifiman and line out only)?
Again headphone amp wise they both look similar THD+N under 1% (although rather different amp technology).

 

[xlinknz]

I can not confirm but it is a general truth for DSD to perform any DSP based operations like EQ it has to be converted to PCM .t

If this product does this or not I can’t say for sure .

But EQ is vastly more important than keeping a specific file format so just convert everything to a suitable PCM format

Correct here is an excellent response from Fiio

Thank you for reaching out to FiiO!

"Hi, yes DSD could not support EQ. It is not a firmware bug.
DSD uses 1-bit high-speed sampling (such as 2.8 MHz) and represents the signal through pulse density modulation. Its data stream is essentially a continuous bit sequence (0/1) rather than discrete amplitude values. The EQ cannot directly analyze the “density” changes in this bit stream. If DSD is forced to be converted to PCM, the EQ can work normally. However, this results in a loss of DSD's native sound quality advantages and increases processing latency.

If you have any questions or concerns please let us know and we would be happy to help you.
Have a nice day!"

 

[Mnyb]

Correct here is an excellent response from Fiio

Thank you for reaching out to FiiO!

"Hi, yes DSD could not support EQ. It is not a firmware bug.
DSD uses 1-bit high-speed sampling (such as 2.8 MHz) and represents the signal through pulse density modulation. Its data stream is essentially a continuous bit sequence (0/1) rather than discrete amplitude values. The EQ cannot directly analyze the “density” changes in this bit stream. If DSD is forced to be converted to PCM, the EQ can work normally. However, this results in a loss of DSD's native sound quality advantages and increases processing latency.

If you have any questions or concerns please let us know and we would be happy to help you.
Have a nice day!"

They have support, very good ! This is also important if you buy a product and needs help .
Good show from FiiO .

The part about DSD’s ” native soundquality advantages ” is marketing FUD . But expected , they sell DSD support because many customers believe this to be true and FiiO is happy to provide a product that supports this .

Maybe your music/streaming/audio application can do the conversion on the fly ? No need to mess with extra copies of the music ?

 

[xlinknz]

They have support, very good ! This is also important if you buy a product and needs help .
Good show from FiiO .

The part about DSD’s ” native soundquality advantages ” is marketing FUD . But expected , they sell DSD support because many customers believe this to be true and FiiO is happy to provide a product that supports this .

Maybe your music/streaming/audio application can do the conversion on the fly ? No need to mess with extra copies of the music ?

On your last comment I will be using an inexpensive Sony BR/SCAD/CD player as a transport connected to a K13 via coax. The Sony only supports SACD output on its HDMI port which my amps don't support. I can rip the SACD to .DSF files and then playback via the K13 USB port to get SACD Hi-Fi

It will be interesting to see if my 60 year old ears can tell the difference the same recording in PCM vs DSD!

 

[JSmith]

DSD's native sound quality advantages

This is marketing rubbish... basically a snake oil claim.


JSmith

 

[xlinknz]

This is marketing rubbish... basically a snake oil claim.


JSmith

I didn't say that Fiio did. Are you also implying SACD is no better the CD?

 

[Mnyb]

On your last comment I will be using an inexpensive Sony BR/SCAD/CD player as a transport connected to a K13 via coax. The Sony only supports SACD output on its HDMI port which my amps don't support. I can rip the SACD to .DSF files and then playback via the K13 USB port to get SACD Hi-Fi

It will be interesting to see if my 60 year old ears can tell the difference the same recording in PCM vs DSD!

The DSF files can be further converted to PCM ( without any loss of sound quality ) if you wish there are some options for that too , but that’s another tread .

If you want to compare I would convert the DSF files and compare those . You may need to match levels carefully they may not playback at the same level .
The CD layer on some SACD may not even be the same master and are ofcourse different

Also beware of this FiiO product , I would compare on a different better DAC . Just one example in the aforementioned NOS mode without reconstructing filter it’s possible that DSD sounds better ? I have no idea of how an FiiO R2R even plays DSD ? Something to investigate ?
Could be a self fulfilling prophecy to use this product for comparison ? Does it even play DSD or is it converted to PCM before playing? Or some kind of different path ? I don’t know . I would figure this out I was doing this exercise?

 

[Mnyb]

I didn't say that Fiio did. Are you also implying SACD is no better the CD?

Basically yes , but there are more DSD formats than SACD and more PCM formats than CD. And a whole other topic but there is no ” native sound quality andvantages ”.

And the different PCM/DSD formats can be comparable good or bad . We have another tread on DSD vs PCM .
DSD is a very cumbersome format, I would avoid it because you can’t do anything with it as you discovered. EQ or crossover to subwoofers would be impossible.

It’s equally cumbersome to record in , you can’t use any common production tools directly. You can transfer analog tapes ( but CD is good enough for that ) or there are some rare special direct to DSD recordings ?

Most SACD are not true DSD recordings either most are PCM productions or of analog originals ? Can be a remastered effort and be different ? If you’re an avid collector of some music, it’s another endless topic? Which version is the best of some recordings?

And the subject if any hirez format is worthwhile, another tread hint it’s probably not , CD seems good enough for human listeners , but for peace of mind if some music is available in its native 24 bit production format many would buy that ( including me )

 

[RexrothPigeon]

I didn't say that Fiio did. Are you also implying SACD is no better the CD?

Yep

 

[Jiraya369]

does anyone have any measurements of the r2r dacs from fiio?

 

[xlinknz]

does anyone have any measurements of the r2r dacs from fiio?

Is this what you are after? https://www.fiio.com/br15r2r_parameters (same R2R as the K13 R2R)

@Mnyb Thank you for the comprehensive reply. Good point! that many SACDs were not orginally recorded in and direct to DSD. My assumption is a SACD recorded natively in DSD i.e. direct to DSD does and will have higher resolution than a CD recording as that was the original purpose of SACD. I will check the the SACD recordings to ensure that benefit.
My 2nd assumption is a Fiio K13 will play DSD when is a from a extracted from the native (and recorded to DSD) DSD layer of SACD to a DSF file. My Sony BR does not support DOP so my only way to benefit from the higher resolution of true SACD is to extract the DSD to DSF and play using Foobar2000 or similar input to the USB on a K13. I am confident it will do that

 

[RexrothPigeon]

DSD does and will have higher resolution than a CD recording

Even if this is true, there is extensive documentation that those differences are inaudible, especially by any listener of adult age, and very definitely by any listener in their 30s or 40s.

 

[Jiraya369]

Is this what you are after? https://www.fiio.com/br15r2r_parameters (same R2R as the K13 R2R)

@Mnyb Thank you for the comprehensive reply. Good point that many SACDs were not orginally recorded in and direct to DSD. My assumption is a SACD recorded natively in DSD i.e. direct to DSD does and will have higher resolution than a CD recording as that was the original purpose of SACD. I will check the orginal recordings to ensure that benefit. My 2nd assumption is a Fiio K13 will play DSD when is a from a extracted from the native (and recorded to DSD) DSD layer of SACD to a DSF file. My Sony BR does not support DOP so my only way to benefit from the higher resolution of true SACD is to extract the DSD to DSF and play using Foobar2000 or similar input to the USB on a K13. I am confident it will do that

nah not from the company, but from an independent tester with an audio precision analyzer or something

 

[xlinknz]

Even if this is true, there is extensive documentation that those differences are inaudible, especially by any listener of adult age, and very definitely by any listener in their 30s or 40s.

It is true it is higher resolution but yes whether it is audible to me we shall see, my 16 year old certainly hears differences I initially don't, likewise the benefit of class A amplification I will be using

 

[Mnyb]

Is this what you are after? https://www.fiio.com/br15r2r_parameters (same R2R as the K13 R2R)

@Mnyb Thank you for the comprehensive reply. Good point! that many SACDs were not orginally recorded in and direct to DSD. My assumption is a SACD recorded natively in DSD i.e. direct to DSD does and will have higher resolution than a CD recording as that was the original purpose of SACD. I will check the the SACD recordings to ensure that benefit.
My 2nd assumption is a Fiio K13 will play DSD when is a from a extracted from the native (and recorded to DSD) DSD layer of SACD to a DSF file. My Sony BR does not support DOP so my only way to benefit from the higher resolution of true SACD is to extract the DSD to DSF and play using Foobar2000 or similar input to the USB on a K13. I am confident it will do that

If foobar has a DSD to PCM plugin ( which it’s probably has by now ) you can convert to 24/192 kHz PCM while playing and still enjoy your EQ function and lose no SQ inaudible or not .

 

[xlinknz]

If foobar has a DSD to PCM plugin ( which it’s probably has by now ) you can convert to 24/192 kHz PCM while playing and still enjoy your EQ function and lose no SQ inaudible or not .

I can simply disable DSD on my BR player and listen to the PCM layer on the SACD via the K13 so no need to convert

 

[Mnyb]

I can simply disable DSD on my BR player and listen to the PCM layer on the SACD via the K13 so no need to convert

If they are identical why not that might be the less involved way to do it .

DSD in SACD is the lowest rate of DSD , it’s about 20 bit equvavilent except in the highest treble where it’s slightly less than CD but continues a bit above 20 kHz .

If your where curious about if the SACD layer is different I guess that conversion to 24/88.2 PCM or more would perfectly preserve it .

Or listen without EQ if the SACD layer is better then it might be worthwhile to convert to then be able to use EQ .

They migth not be exactly the same master and possibly worthwhile to explore

 

[antcollinet]

my 16 year old certainly hears differences

If you've not demonstrated that with a sufficiently well controlled blind test, you don't know that he can.

 

[antcollinet]

I can simply disable DSD on my BR player and listen to the PCM layer on the SACD via the K13 so no need to convert

The PCM layer is not always the same master or may have a different level.