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R2R DACs are on a roll- New Fiio K13 R2R Balanced DAC

"Dogmatic" implies a stubborn adherence to some set of belief irrespective of evidence, an absence of curiosity, and so on - but I've spent far, far more energy testing this stuff than it's worth over the decades. I know for an absolute fact that my hearing is extremely prone to hearing imaginary differences. I'm very open to (technically coherent) cases for how conventional engineering wisdom about audio fidelity might be wrong - they just don't really exist (or demand that a staggering percentage of audio electronics out there be wildly misdesigned or malfunctioning, which I have not found to be the case in testing my admittedly modest selection of equipment). I think it is an extremely safe bet to assume that an audiophile is more likely to hear things that aren't there, than highly sensitive test equipment failing to capture large differences that are, based on plenty of experience both with measuring and listening, not blind dogmatism. No one's stopping anyone from (mis)placing trust in their ears and marketing, and indulging their taste for placebo, but as your heap of converters suggests, this tends to get expensive.

For what it's worth, the Gustard R26 is a DAC that would hardly make the top of Amir's chart, but based on L7AudioLab's review there's no measurable evidence of it having a "sound" (the usual broken-by-design NOS mode aside, though if you're 75, even that might be indistinguishable from anything else you have by ears alone).
One can witness dogmatism on both sides of the aisle, that's for sure.

[Incidentally, the placebo effect, though often quite short-lived, sometimes it can last years and is a genuine phenomenon. I remember watching a documentary where people supposedly had hip surgery, but actually didn't. Years later, some of them were still walking around apparently fine and dandy, even when they had learnt that their "surgery" was bogus. Go figure].

That aside, the sense in which you mean placebo I'd apply not only to persons who convince themselves something is an imaginary benefit, but to those who convince themselves no such benefit could possibly exist. Expectation bias can play into either proclivity.

That hi-fi equipment measures differently is a fact we can all agree on. That such measurement reflects how it sounds is more subjective, more open to narrative/interpretation. Someone who believes DACs all sound the same might convince himself that that's so even if there are differences. OTOH, someone who believes this DAC sounds better than another might be deluding himself. Maybe one could test the former through A/B/X, but not tell him what was different -- could be a DAC, amp, or streaming transport for instance. That way, he'd be less likely to allow expectation bias based on prior belief to influence him.

After all, people's systems do sound different, don't they? If they didn't, we'd all be in audio nirvana at very reasonable cost. Some items do usually make an easily discernible difference -- speakers for example, though I have heard speakers, sometimes of entirely different kinds and prices, that sounded very similar, so one can't over-generalise. Amps, once one gets to a certain level, IMHO often sound pretty samey. My primary c. £2000 preamp/amp combo doesn't in absolute terms sound tremendously different from the £600 integrated in my secondary system.

And yes, I am 75 as it happens -- did you know that, BTW, and if so how? Maybe I mentioned that previously? Don't think so, but my memory's not what it was :). I can hear clearly to around 11 khz in both ears. Not in my prime, it is true, but that covers most of the likely audio spectrum.

As to Amir's chart, I don't rely on it -- I have or have had a few items in his lists, and whilst I can't disagree with his measurements, I can disagree about the correlation of some of those with how they actually sound. See, if people start off with an unreserved belief that measurements correlate with perceived sound quality, it might lead to confirmation bias. Like I said, placebo effects could lean both ways.
 
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See, if people start off with an unreserved belief that measurements correlate with perceived sound quality, it might lead to confirmation bias. Like I said, placebo effects could lean both ways.
It's not a belief; it's established science proven over and over again.
 
When I bought it, the Earmen Tradutto delta sigma cost around £799 (that's currently just over $1000). But I don't think it's that much better than the cheapest c. £100 delta sigma I have. If DACs aren't meant to sound like anything, or as I take that, are meant to sound "transparent" to the source, then my conclusion might be that R2Rs don't sound transparent in that sense.

It's not that delta sigmas sound bad to me, so much as just a little boring. Based on the 2 I have, maybe R2Rs are "coloured" or "inaccurate" -- perhaps even "broken". But if so, I like that. For whatever reason, an R2R gets me involved, so that now I listen quite a lot more on the secondary system on the desktop in my study rather than always taking a break to listen on the main system in the lounge.

I have little idea, technically speaking, why R2R gets me more involved -- I can only speak about subjective responses to tone, soundstage, musical interplay and so forth. If anyone feels that a delta sigma gets them more involved, that's fine by me. I don't believe there's right or wrong in all this, just people and the pairs of ears they happen to have. But IMHO no one should allow themselves, either way, to be unduly influenced by others.

When I restarted this hobby about five years ago after a long hiatus, that's a mistake I made and it led me on a merry dance. I bought all sorts of stuff and ended up not liking quite a lot of it, often after convincing myself for a while I did like it. Only when I started to rely on my own perceptions and being more discerning about equipment reviews/reviewers could I begin to really enjoy my music.
If a transparent DAC somehow "sounds" boring, less involving, less exciting to you, find better music. :facepalm:
 
If a transparent DAC somehow "sounds" boring, less involving, less exciting to you, find better music. :facepalm:
exactly.... recording quality is important... and/or ... get better speakers/headphones.
It is not a 'property' of a DAC despite the common belief.
 
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Are everyone onboard what's commonly meant by transparent ? @Michael Larkin .

You are hearing the source material itself that's the definition .
If one understands and is fine with that and still buys products with a notabel flavor that's OK too. Enjoy the music :)

Most of the debacle in the R2R treads are about some enthusiastic proponent usually claims some kind of superior reproduction of the source material .
That's demonstrably and trivially not true it's easy to show that what comes out of most DS DAC's are more similar to the input signal .

+
It's not a belief; it's established science proven over and over again.
Most of the DACS's in AMIR's test lists can not be detected from a straight wire by any human under any circumstance .
That's the thing with sighted listning in ones own home , no soundwave need to change for you to perceive difference's that's how the brain work for all of us .
Just play the same song two times in row and hear for yourself .



Also even the "bad" DAC's cant usually be told apart under controlled circumstances ( no knowledge no peeking , ears only evaluation) .
But it could be possible for some person under some circumstance with some material ( usually test signals as music masks to much ? or actually some music track ? ) to tell this device from another . If you good at it .

The blue tier in the test list a biological impossibility if you are human .

The bias/placebo or what we call this cofounding factors are the dominating factor with such high quality devices as a modern DAC , hence all sighted testing must be discarded and put in the personal anecdote box .

Amps if driven over their capacity to handle the speakers can have a "sound" , bad clipping is audible to everyone . But used withing thier design parameters not so much
 
NOS with filter is how the early DAC's in the beginning of digital audio worked, but they did have a reconstruction filter even if partly analog if i remember .
"Partly" analog? What other kind could they be if the DACs were NOS?

Also, given that the DAC in the first Phillips CD player was already using oversampling, how many non-oversampling DACs were there actually in the early days?
 
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"Partly" analog? What other kind could they be if the DACs were NOS?

Also, given that the DAC in the first Phillips CD player was already using oversampling, how many non-oversampling DACs were there actually in the early days?
A whole lot, because DACs didn't suddenly pop into existence only when CD players arrived. :p
 
"Partly" analog? What other kind could they be if the DACs were NOS?
Given that a DAC does not output discrete, infinitely small sample points, all DACs have some reconstruction mechanism. In the case of NOS, it's usually sample-and-hold.

All DACs have an analog filter as well, but for DS, this can be way above the audible range. NOS DACs should have these in the audible range, but often they are omitted or shifted way up to prevent phase issues and even more frequency response droop.
 
Anyone used or heard of this brand? https://www.garlubidor.com/divinity-dac-details-page . Looks like it's owned by Denafrips.

should receive mine today.... I wanted to upgrade my Denafrips Ares 12th to the Pontus 15th but then I saw the reviews from Steve and also Tharbamar. I finally decided to go with the Garlubidor as I'm not against a screen to display some info if the sound quality is the same (and also the remote, even if I think you can also have a remote with the denafrips now).

Betweeen this one and the GE 300b, that was an expensive black friday :facepalm:
 
should receive mine today.... I wanted to upgrade my Denafrips Ares 12th to the Pontus 15th but then I saw the reviews from Steve and also Tharbamar. I finally decided to go with the Garlubidor as I'm not against a screen to display some info if the sound quality is the same (and also the remote, even if I think you can also have a remote with the denafrips now).

Betweeen this one and the GE 300b, that was an expensive black friday :facepalm:
Enjoy.

Not for me, I'm put of by those silly names alone :p
 
Pontus always makes me think that white smoke is involved, somehow...

Denafrips sounds like the monikner of an intelligent alien species from some 1950s sci-fi "B" movie. No, wait, that was Krell (and not really a "B" movie, in fairness).
 
Pontus always makes me think that white smoke is involved, somehow...

Denafrips sounds like the monikner of an intelligent alien species from some 1950s sci-fi "B" movie. No, wait, that was Krell (and not really a "B" movie, in fairness).
Krell apparently immigrated from Flatland, where they were members of the professional and gentleman class, representing individuals such as doctors, lawyers, and other educated professionals.
 
I like the proliferation of unpronounceable brand names (cf. outlets such as Amazon & Aliexpress).
How do people talk about their hifis anymore?

I can say Yamaha but if I owned, e.g., an Audio-gd, Loxjie, or xDuoo... I don't know what I'd say. :eek:
Especially if I used it to listen to Qobuz.

I first grumbled about this in the context of an open-source headphone project posted here some time back...

In fairness, I can make a good-faith attempt to pronounce Ploopy, although suppressing a giggle would be challenging.
 
In fairness, I can make a good-faith attempt to pronounce Ploopy, although suppressing a giggle would be challenging.
Omg :D reminds me of silly trollface comics with schwoopy loopy arms.

And frips... hell, that sounds like a middle German slang term for a bratty kid or a dumb person. :facepalm: The joy and difficulty of catering to an international customer base...
 
Omg :D reminds me of silly trollface comics with schwoopy loopy arms.

And frips... hell, that sounds like a middle German slang term for a bratty kid or a dumb person. :facepalm: The joy and difficulty of catering to an international customer base...
Probably why model designations reads like a food additive "try our new E150 model" if you try any kind of name, it probably means soggy underpants in some language
 
Probably why model designations reads like a food additive "try our new E150 model" if you try any kind of name, it probably means soggy underpants in some language
Famously (and utterly apocryphally!), General Motors had trouble marketing the Nova automobiles in "Latin America", as No va meant "does not go" to those folks.

Similarly, the story of Humble/Standard Oil/Esso ("S. O." :)) and their rebrading to Exxon was careful to minimize such risk. The "xx" construction was, it was said, present in no extant language.
1764687285131.png

Mad
magazine parodied Exxon's branding with reference to a then-sitting US president with an "x" in his name. I should probably leave it at that. ;)
 
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