Quick measurements Dekoni pads vs stock on Hifiman HE-560 v1

[pkane]

As I mentioned in another thread, the pads on my 4-year old HE-560 headphones are wearing out. I use them at least a few hours a day and like the sound (after my own EQ) and like the pads, except they keep my ears a bit more toasty than I like after prolonged wearing.

Ordered the Dekoni Elite Hybrid replacement pads. Measuring the change on a flat plate comparing to stock pads, there are some differences:

Blue line is a vector average of four sweeps in REW with repositioning the phones on top of the plate for each sweep. I tried to get the best match I could between the old sweep and the new using white noise and real-time spectrum viewer (RTA). This is as close as I could get the two. At some point I'll compare them with in-ear mics, also.

Subjective: sounds good! Can't compare these directly to the original, but the Dekoni's seem just a tad brighter, and not at all in a negative way, just slightly more detailed. I kept the old EQ settings and they seem to work just fine. These didn't go much above 3k, so that makes sense. The pads feel cooler and a bit stiffer, apparently using memory foam inside. Putting them on feels comfortable, and my entire ear fits inside the pad, snug but not cramped. Seems like a good replacement pad!

Four scans with Dekoni pads:

 

[bobbooo]

Flat plate measurements are simply an unsuitable and inaccurate tool for determining frequency response, due to not having the same acoustic impedance as the human ear. I explained all this in this post on the HE400i review thread, with a link to Oratory's excellent Reddit post with measurements showing a non-industry standard rig without the same acoustic impedance as the ear gives an inaccurate (and not even compensatable) frequency response. If you still don't believe me, the highly knowledgeable @Mad_Economist showed the same thing comparing flat plate measurements with those from an industry standard HATS. That's two professionals who measure and design headphones for a living saying and demonstrably proving the same thing. The only suitable use-case scenario for flat plate measurements is for quality control within one specific model with the same pads, because via leakage/seal differences, using different pads can change the acoustic impedance of a headphone in significant and unpredictable ways, pads being as important as the drivers in their effect on a headphone's sound, as I've previously quoted Oratory stating.

 

[Jimbob54]

Heretic.

 

[pkane]

Flat plate measurements are simply an unsuitable and inaccurate tool for determining frequency response, due to not having the same acoustic impedance as the human ear. I explained all this in this post on the HE400i review thread, with a link to Oratory's excellent Reddit post with measurements showing a non-industry standard rig without the same acoustic impedance as the ear gives an inaccurate (and not even compensatable) frequency response. If you still don't believe me, the highly knowledgeable @Mad_Economist showed the same thing comparing flat plate measurements with those from an industry standard HATS. That's two professionals who measure and design headphones for a living saying and demonstrably proving the same thing. The only suitable use-case scenario for flat plate measurements is for quality control within one specific model with the same pads, because via leakage/seal differences, using different pads can change the acoustic impedance of a headphone in significant and unpredictable ways, pads being as important as the drivers in their effect on a headphone's sound, as I've previously quoted Oratory stating.

You do realize that this is just me checking the actual differences in the transducer frequency response due to the change in pads? You know, simple mechanical measurements, not meant to predict anyone’s perception of the sound. Just a simple attempt to check if the pads do make a difference.

 

[Jimbob54]

From what I can gather from many anecdotal reviews/ comments around replacement pads is try to keep the materials / shape similar if you want to maintain a semblance of the stock sound. So going from a velour Beyer pad to a leather replacement will have far more sonic impact (better or worse depends on your tastes I suppose) than a replacement velour type. Makes logical sense to me.

After that I suppose it comes down to quality of construction vs price.

EDIT- but I guess you are going from leather to hybrid here ?

 

[bobbooo]

You do realize that this is just me checking the actual differences in the transducer frequency response due to the change in pads? You know, simple mechanical measurements, not meant to predict anyone’s perception of the sound. Just a simple attempt to check if the pads do make a difference.

You're not checking the actual difference in frequency response though - even the difference here is inaccurate. Please read the posts by Oratory and @Mad_Economist I linked to to see why, the latter measuring a +/-6dB error in the flat plate measurements. Crucially this error is not constant across headphones with differing acoustic impedance, and as pads can change a headphone's acoustic impedance, the max difference of ~6dB in your measurements above could all be within the measurement error of the flat plate rig, meaning these measurements don't tell you anything of any accuracy about the true sonic differences between the pads.

 

[pkane]

You're not checking the actual difference in frequency response though - even the difference here is inaccurate. Please read the posts by Oratory and @Mad_Economist I linked to to see why, the latter measuring a +/-6dB error in the flat plate measurements. Crucially this error is not constant across headphones with differing acoustic impedance, and as pads can change a headphone's acoustic impedance, the max difference of ~6dB in your measurements above could all be within the measurement error of the flat plate rig, meaning these measurements don't tell you anything of any accuracy about the true sonic differences between the pads.

As I said, all this was designed to do is to see if the pads made any differences in the frequency response. The answer is definitely yes. Your arguments about accuracy of the measurement and "true sonic differences" are valid, but misplaced here, since neither was the goal of this particular test.

 

[pkane]

From what I can gather from many anecdotal reviews/ comments around replacement pads is try to keep the materials / shape similar if you want to maintain a semblance of the stock sound. So going from a velour Beyer pad to a leather replacement will have far more sonic impact (better or worse depends on your tastes I suppose) than a replacement velour type. Makes logical sense to me.

After that I suppose it comes down to quality of construction vs price.

EDIT- but I guess you are going from leather to hybrid here ?

Yes, the stock pads actually look almost exactly the same as the hybrids. The "stuffing" is obviously different, and I think this helps a bit with external sound insulation and a better seal on my ears. But generally, these are not very different from what I'm used to. Overall, these make a good replacement pads for my purpose (I wasn't looking for better sound with these, just comfortable pads that look good and can replace the old, worn-out ones).

 

[Jimbob54]

Yes, the stock pads actually look almost exactly the same as the hybrids. The "stuffing" is obviously different, and I think this helps a bit with external sound insulation and a better seal on my ears. But generally, these are not very different from what I'm used to. Overall, these make a good replacement pads for my purpose (I wasn't looking for better sound with these, just comfortable pads that look good and can replace the old, worn-out ones).

Thats pretty much always why I replace stocks. Something about them doesnt suit (usually internal diameter or hardness of foam). Or wear and tear and I cant get/ afford stock. I wouldnt change pads for the sake of it or some guy on the interweb saying it transforms the sound.

 

[bobbooo]

As I said, all this was designed to do is to see if the pads made any differences in the frequency response. The answer is definitely yes. Your arguments about accuracy of the measurement and "true sonic differences" are valid, but misplaced here, since neither was the goal of this particular test.

Stritcly speaking these measurements don't even allow you to conclude there is a definite difference in frequency response between these pads, due to the measured difference being within the +/-6dB error range of a flat plate rig as I mentioned previously, so while unlikely, the specific error curve between these two measurements could align (within audibility say) with the measured difference between them, meaning the two pads (with headphone) could in reality have the same frequency response yet still be recorded as having different frequency responses by the flat plate rig.

 

[thewas]

On the other hand real human ears have all different geometries and impedances so even using the "Oratory" one while having possibly a good match to the average of the population, might not have it for some individual ones so for the individual case it might not be more meaningful than his flat plate measurement.

 

[pkane]

Stritcly speaking these measurements don't even allow you to conclude there is a definite difference in frequency response between these pads, due to the measured difference being within the +/-6dB error range of a flat plate rig as I mentioned previously, so while unlikely, the specific error curve between these two measurements could align (within audibility say) with the measured difference between them, meaning the two pads (with headphone) could in reality have the same frequency response yet still be recorded as having different frequency responses by the flat plate rig.

I know you want to prove your point, but it's still not relevant to the result I was after. This was not a scientific study, not a proof-positive, and not an attempt to convince anyone. I simply wanted to see if the pads made a difference in frequency. They did.

 

[bobbooo]

I know you want to prove your point, but it's still not relevant to the result I was after. This was not a scientific study, not a proof-positive, and not an attempt to convince anyone. I simply wanted to see if the pads made a difference in frequency. They did.

You haven't seen if the pads have made an actual difference in frequency response though, that's precisely my point. All you've done is measured a difference in frequency response on a wholly inaccurate rig, which tells you nothing about either what your ears would hear or the frequency response that would be measured by accurate, industry standard equipment that is a good approximation of what your ears would hear. As such I really don't see the value or point of this measurement.

 

[pkane]

You haven't seen if the pads have made an actual difference in frequency response though, that's precisely my point. All you've done is measured a difference in frequency response on a wholly inaccurate rig, which tells you nothing about either what your ears would hear or the frequency response that would be measured by accurate, industry standard equipment that is a good approximation of what your ears would hear. As such I really don't see the value or point of this measurement.

What makes my rig inaccurate? And why do you keep bringing up the ear response when I clearly stated that wasn't what I was measuring?

 

[Patrick1958]

As I mentioned in another thread, the pads on my 4-year old HE-560 headphones are wearing out. I use them at least a few hours a day and like the sound (after my own EQ) and like the pads, except they keep my ears a bit more toasty than I like after prolonged wearing.

Ordered the Dekoni Elite Hybrid replacement pads. Measuring the change on a flat plate comparing to stock pads, there are some differences:

View attachment 107674

Blue line is a vector average of four sweeps in REW with repositioning the phones on top of the plate for each sweep. I tried to get the best match I could between the old sweep and the new using white noise and real-time spectrum viewer (RTA). This is as close as I could get the two. At some point I'll compare them with in-ear mics, also.

Subjective: sounds good! Can't compare these directly to the original, but the Dekoni's seem just a tad brighter, and not at all in a negative way, just slightly more detailed. I kept the old EQ settings and they seem to work just fine. These didn't go much above 3k, so that makes sense. The pads feel cooler and a bit stiffer, apparently using memory foam inside. Putting them on feels comfortable, and my entire ear fits inside the pad, snug but not cramped. Seems like a good replacement pad!

Four scans with Dekoni pads:
View attachment 107686

Hi,
Could you share your EQ setting used on the original pads?
Thanks.

 

[pkane]

Hi,
Could you share your EQ setting used on the original pads?
Thanks.

These were derived from measurements with in-ear mics and not following anyone's target, so may be very particular to my ears

 

[Patrick1958]

These were derived from measurements with in-ear mics and not following anyone's target, so may be very particular to my ears

View attachment 107854

Thanks. Will give these a try this afternoon, who knows maybe with some tweaking these could be useful.

 

[solderdude]

The rig is perfectly suitable for measuring changes between pads.
It just is not comparable in an absolute sense compared to other rigs nor does Paul claim to be, this is not what Paul is after either.
He is just looking for relative differences and as long as the angle and physical size is not very different the observed differences are between the pads as the rest did not change.
I assume Paul also hears the measured differences although that could well be confirmation bias.

Here is another (also utterly worthless) measurement of the HE560 for everyone's amusement.