• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required as is 20 years of participation in forums (not all true). There are daily reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Quick & Dirty Measurements of Marantz NR1711 PCM5102A Version (05/2021+)

deadwood83

Member
Joined
Sep 1, 2022
Messages
90
Likes
147
I am not aware of anybody measuring Marantz' 2020-2021 slimline series receivers with the updated PCm5102A DACs after the AK fire. Supposedly the NR series does not have Marantz' infamous HDAM/JDAM/AMRAAM/NSAM/AMTRAK or whatever they are called.

I recently came into ownership of a Cosmos ADC and decided it was about time (and I am curious). First of all, I want to thank Ivan for bringing the Cosmos ADC product to market (and dealing with my questions) as well as pkane for bringing the multitone software out and making it quite accessible.


I wanted to start off with a baseline just to put into perspective my measurements vs Amir's. I have one device which we have both measured; the Loxjie D40 (DAC section). You can see his numbers here: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/loxjie-d40-review-dac-hp-amp.31040/. My measurements of the same device can be found at the end.

My NR1711 is basically used as an HDMI switch and I don't run speakers off it. I do not have the proper cables made at this time to use the 43V input of the Cosmos to measure the onboard amplifier. Previous versions of the Marantz series which had the AK DAC chip would use PCM5100 as Zone2. Models after May 2021 have the 8k resolution fix as well as the main AK DAC swapped for the PCM5102A.

My measurements will be with the Cosmos ADC set to 4.5V sensitivity fed by the Marantz pre-outs for L+R using an SE-BAL RCA-XLR cable for both channels. Output is slightly 'spicy' for an RCA signal at about 2.5Vpp.

Connections: Lenovo M75q Gen 2 -> HDMI -> Marantz RCA Pre-Out -> XLR -> Cosmos ADC -> USB -> Lenovo M75q Gen2

Marantz Settings: Speakers are set to 'Large', Subwoofer is disabled, amp assign is set to 'Bi-Amp Mains' ECO mode is set to Auto (reduces amp power when not needed, and since I have no speakers connected, it is very much not needed), Audyssey is disabled, graphic EQ is flat at 0 on all six bands, all level adjustments are set to +0.0dB.

Multitone settings: -4dB Play Gain. L+R channels on both output and input. 1048756 point FFT with 32 averages. All interfaces in WASAPI exclusive at 24/192kHz. Frequency range 20-20000. One peculiarity I noticed is that any 0dbFS signal fed to the receiver will result in an incredible amount of noise floor increase. This happened regardless of ADC sensitivity setting. I believe the AVR itself cannot handle a full 'hot' signal being fed into it via HDMI. All signals were set to -4dB in multitone to get a clean picture. All traces in BLUE are the left channel unless otherwise specified.



To probably nobody;s surprise, the Marantz is slightly noisy, but the numbers actually surprised me (in a good way... until later).


One of Marantz' marketing points is the lack of ground pin in the IEC socket. This is a Class 2 device. No ground pin, no ground noise, right? Well, we'll see about that. The mighty 60Hz is strong. Never underestimate the 60Hz.


NR1711 1kHz FFT:
1667621368000.png

Marantz is not doing the PCM5102A justice. Less than 16 bits usable range. For reference, here is the PCM5102A eval board tested by a gentleman on the TI E2E boards:

pastedimage1649210371198v3.png



NR1711 Multitone:
1667621727824.png


There may be no ground plug, but that has never stopped the mighty 60Hz!

BUT! What if we feed an analog signal in from the D40 to the Marantz' CD input? Is it the amp circuitry, or the DAC implementation?

NR1711 Analog to Analog 1kHz FFT:
1667624802455.png

Oof.


NR1711 Analog to Analog Multitone:
1667624062016.png



Uhhhhhhhh. The analog inputs are truly awful This AVR should ONLY be used for digital input. I have no idea what the analog signal goes through but it is awful.

I spent way too much time measuring this sad device. Perhaps I will revisit it as a hacked unit with LVDS I2S output into a proper DAC. At least that way it won't feel like a huge waste of cash and effort.The digital section is passable


As a yardstick, I present my Loxjie D40 measurements so you can compare them with Amir's to come to your own conclusions. All my measurements show lower performance than Amir's by a few dBr.
D40 1kHz fft:
1667627141558.png




D40 Multitone (32-tone AP version):
1667627652137.png


On the D40 I got a TD+N of -116.4dB which is roughly equal to 116.4dB SINAD. Amir measured 122dB SINAD, most likely due to a much more controlled environment and better gear. If we look at my 116 vs his 122 there is a delta of ~6dB SINAD. I have no idea if this is linear/applicable when examining across devices. If it is applicable, then the 84 SINAD of the AVR can be brought down to 90 SINAD which would place it near the AV8805 and AV7705.

Edits: spelling, Zone 2 DAC correction.
 
Last edited:

Blumlein 88

Grand Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 23, 2016
Messages
17,186
Likes
29,949
Rather typical Marantz. SINAD in the mid 80 range. I wonder if they have a lousy ADC on the analog inputs that digitizes the signal.

Back around a decade or so ago someone measured some of the Denon and Marantz units with analog inputs that all went thru a bad ADC. I'd measured them with SINADs in the mid 50s. Mostly due to noise. The noise was on par with LP surface noise. Later someone on DIY audio figured out why. They had done an incredibly inept job on the power supply traces and put the ADC in a tiny corner without much room in the unit. He figured out how a rather small pair of capacitors added to those traces right next to the ADC cleaned that up and dropped noise levels into the mid -90 db range. Marantz loves reusing designs. A shame they don't bother making really good ones if they plan on using them for years and years. I wouldn't doubt this unit here suffers from much the same issue that could be fixed for less than $2 and some care in design.
 

Thomas_A

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jun 20, 2019
Messages
2,298
Likes
1,615
Location
Sweden
Thanks for this. Did you try pure direct for the analogue?

 

Thomas_A

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jun 20, 2019
Messages
2,298
Likes
1,615
Location
Sweden
Rather typical Marantz. SINAD in the mid 80 range. I wonder if they have a lousy ADC on the analog inputs that digitizes the signal.

Back around a decade or so ago someone measured some of the Denon and Marantz units with analog inputs that all went thru a bad ADC. I'd measured them with SINADs in the mid 50s. Mostly due to noise. The noise was on par with LP surface noise. Later someone on DIY audio figured out why. They had done an incredibly inept job on the power supply traces and put the ADC in a tiny corner without much room in the unit. He figured out how a rather small pair of capacitors added to those traces right next to the ADC cleaned that up and dropped noise levels into the mid -90 db range. Marantz loves reusing designs. A shame they don't bother making really good ones if they plan on using them for years and years. I wouldn't doubt this unit here suffers from much the same issue that could be fixed for less than $2 and some care in design.
Some of the early Marantz were horrible (broken?). At the time I bought the SR4300, but had to exchange it for a H/K AVR.
 

Attachments

  • The_Noisy_MarantzSR4300.pdf
    330.8 KB · Views: 32

Blumlein 88

Grand Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 23, 2016
Messages
17,186
Likes
29,949
Some of the early Marantz were horrible (broken?). At the time I bought the SR4300, but had to exchange it for a H/K AVR.
I wish H/K still made AVRs. Had one made just prior to HDMI. Used it until it gave up the ghost, but it was a good product.
 

peng

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
May 12, 2019
Messages
3,581
Likes
3,177
I am not aware of anybody measuring Marantz' 2020-2021 slimline series receivers with the updated PCm5102A DACs after the AK fire. Supposedly the NR series does not have Marantz' infamous HDAM/JDAM/AMRAAM/NSAM/AMTRAK or whatever they are called.

I recently came into ownership of a Cosmos ADC and decided it was about time (and I am curious). First of all, I want to thank Ivan for bringing the Cosmos ADC product to market (and dealing with my questions) as well as pkane for bringing the multitone software out and making it quite accessible.


I wanted to start off with a baseline just to put into perspective my measurements vs Amir's. I have one device which we have both measured; the Loxjie D40 (DAC section). You can see his numbers here: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/loxjie-d40-review-dac-hp-amp.31040/. My measurements of the same device can be found at the end.

My NR1711 is basically used as an HDMI switch and I don't run speakers off it. I do not have the proper cables made at this time to use the 43V input of the Cosmos to measure the onboard amplifier. Previous versions of the Marantz series which had the AK DAC chip would use PCM5102A as Zone2. Models after May 2021 has the 8k resolution fix as well as the main AK DAC swapped for the PCM5102A.

My measurements will be with the Cosmos ADC set to 4.5V sensitivity fed by the Marantz pre-outs for L+R using an SE-BAL RCA-XLR cable for both channels. Output is slightly 'spicy' for an RCA signal at about 2.5Vpp.

Connections: Lenovo M75q Gen 2 -> HDMI -> Marantz RCA Pre-Out -> XLR -> Cosmos ADC -> USB -> Lenovo M75q Gen2

Marantz Settings: Speakers are set to 'Large', Subwoofer is disabled, amp assign is set to 'Bi-Amp Mains' ECO mode is set to Auto (reduces amp power when not needed, and since I have no speakers connected, it is very much not needed), Audyssey is disabled, graphic EQ is flat at 0 on all six bands, all level adjustments are set to +0.0dB.

Multitone settings: -4dB Play Gain. L+R channels on both output and input. 1048756 point FFT with 32 averages. All interfaces in WASAPI exclusive at 24/192kHz. Frequency range 20-20000. One peculiarity I noticed is that any 0dbFS signal fed to the receiver will result in an incredible amount of noise floor increase. This happened regardless of ADC sensitivity setting. I believe the AVR itself cannot handle a full 'hot' signal being fed into it via HDMI. All signals were set to -4dB in multitone to get a clean picture. All traces in BLUE are the left channel unless otherwise specified.



To probably nobody;s surprise, the Marantz is slightly noisy, but the numbers actually surprised me (in a good way... until later).


One of Marantz' marketing points is the lack of ground pin in the IEC socket. This is a Class 2 device. No ground pin, no ground noise, right? Well, we'll see about that. The mighty 60Hz is strong. Never underestimate the 60Hz.


NR1711 1kHz FFT:
View attachment 241283

Marantz is not doing the PCM5102A justice. Less than 16 bits usable range.


NR1711 Multitone:
View attachment 241284


There may be no ground plug, but that has never stopped the mighty 60Hz!

BUT! What is we fed an analog signal in from the D40 to the Marantz' CD input? Is it the amp circuitry, or the DAC implementation?

NR1711 Analog to Analog 1kHz FFT:
View attachment 241287
Oof.


NR1711 Analog to Analog Multitone:
View attachment 241286


Uhhhhhhhh. The analog inputs are truly awful This AVR should ONLY be used for digital input. I have no idea what the analog signal goes through but it is awful.

I spent way too much time measuring this sad device. Perhaps I will revisit it as a hacked unit with LVDS I2S output into a proper DAC. At least that way it won't feel like a huge waste of cash and effort.The digital section is passable


As a yardstick, I present my Loxjie D40 measurements so you can compare them with Amir's to come to your own conclusions. All my measurements show lower performance than Amir's by a few dBr.
D40 1kHz fft:
View attachment 241289



D40 Multitone (32-tone AP version):
View attachment 241290

On the D40 I got a TD+N of -116.4dB which is roughly equal to 116.4dB SINAD. Amir measured 122dB SINAD, most likely due to a much more controlled environemnt and better gear. If we look at my 116 vs his 122 there is a delta of ~6dB SINAD. I have no idea if this is linear/applicable when examining across devices. If it is applicable, then the 84 SINAD of the AVR can be brought down to 90 SINAD which would place it near the AV8805 and AV7705.

Just a few points:

- The Z2 dac is the PCM5100 not the 5102. Edit: That's for the prior year models, not sure about the 2022 models as there are no info that I could find for the Z2 DAC.
- Analog inputs will get converted to digital and then back to analog unless you use direct/pure direct mode.
- The AV7705's 90 dB SINAD was for 2 V XLR, that would be 1 V RCA.
- The AV8805 was the only Marantz that managed to get 90 dB SINAD on Amir's test bench, until the SR8015 was measured.
- The SR8015 is the only Marantz that measured as good as the Denon AVRs.

I think the NR1711 would have been able to get up the mid 90s if it had the AK4458, but unfortunately with the PCM5102A in the chain, the best it can do would be mid to high 80s. Analog direct should be able to achieve at least 90 though.
 
Last edited:

vert

Active Member
Joined
May 30, 2018
Messages
249
Likes
216
Location
Switzerland
I have an earlier slimline unit, the NR1508. In a recent living room make-over, my (non audiophile) wife was complaining about having a subwoofer in the room. She had a point, as it sees rather limited use, a couple of hours of movie watching per week, often less. While we're at it, I thought, why not declutter for our new TV bench, and replace the AVR with a Loxjie A30 amp which is 1/10th its size. The Loxjie amp does just as well sound-wise and probably better than the Marantz, but it's difficult to tell, as I did something I should have done a long time ago - get some stands for my speakers (low table stands which I put on the TV bench). 30-35 watts is plenty of power for our medium-sized living room. I get really good sound for music. For movies, the sound from the TV is frankly not bad (Sony "acoustic surface" technology) and l might just leave it at that. I'm just not that interested in AVRs anymore. The unreliable performance as tested here really puts me off, in addition to their mastodont dimensions, even the slimline models. And I was using mine in a 3.1 setup (two bookshelves, TV screen for center speaker, 1 sub), I always lacked the resolve to go full home cinema with additional speakers. From my perspective it's high time AVR manufacturers changed their tune.
 
OP
D

deadwood83

Member
Joined
Sep 1, 2022
Messages
90
Likes
147
Thanks for this. Did you try pure direct for the analogue?

I should re-visit this. I was writing the post near midnight and I assumed the colored buttons on the remote were mostly meaningless like Sony TVs. When testing from my HTPC via HDMI, it was displaying direct so perhaps there is some gain to be had in A-A with the yellow button.

I also got this as a slim 'Upgrade' to a nearly decade older Sony STR-DN1060. I still have the Sony sitting here. I wonder..... Ah, but the Sony I think only has a Zone2 Out which is assignable but I believe has a different flow. Actually, maybe I won't measure it because the hum coming from my speakers before made me diagnose a delaminated transformer.

Just a few points:

- The Z2 dac is the PCM5100 not the 5102. Edit: That's for the prior year models, not sure about the 2022 models as there are no info that I could find for the Z2 DAC.
- Analog inputs will get converted to digital and then back to analog unless you use direct/pure direct mode.
- The AV7705's 90 dB SINAD was for 2 V XLR, that would be 1 V RCA.
- The AV8805 was the only Marantz that managed to get 90 dB SINAD on Amir's test bench, until the SR8015 was measured.
- The SR8015 is the only Marantz that measured as good as the Denon AVRs.

I think the NR1711 would have been able to get up the mid 90s if it had the AK4458, but unfortunately with the PCM5102A in the chain, the best it can do would be mid to high 80s. Analog direct should be able to achieve at least 90 though.
Ah! Thank you for catching those corrections! I have added them to the OP. It is indeed quite unfortunate that D-M spent the effort to re-path PCBs and re-write firmware all while increasing MSRP and then they didn't even use parts of equivalent stature. But it all unfolded amidst a messy supply chain so it was doubtless much easier (and cheaper) to just add a part number to an existing supplier order.

I got a refurb unit from Accessories4Less in hopes it just might be an AKM, but the SN was off by 402. I'm very glad I did not pay MSRP ($1200 USD at the time). I asked D-M support if the unit could handle DSD256 in direct mode (as the manual states) and they suggested I should talk to Texas Instruments. Cest la vie.

1667700035399.png


I did my part.

1667700091520.png


And as an addendum I would like to say that the receiver as delivered didn't sound bad at all, but there was just absolutely nothing special about it; and the UI is far clunkier than Onkyo or Sony. Inoffensive (price aside) but underwhelming.
 

GXAlan

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 15, 2020
Messages
1,623
Likes
2,452
Great work. Welcome to E1DA Cosmos ADC club :)
 

GXAlan

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 15, 2020
Messages
1,623
Likes
2,452
I always lacked the resolve to go full home cinema with additional speakers. From my perspective it's high time AVR manufacturers changed their tune.

The Sonos amp can give you a small amp with wireless rear channels. Performance is great while you stay in digital mode.

 

Palladium

Senior Member
Forum Donor
Joined
Aug 4, 2017
Messages
370
Likes
367
One of Marantz' marketing points is the lack of ground pin in the IEC socket. This is a Class 2 device. No ground pin, no ground noise, right? Well, we'll see about that. The mighty 60Hz is strong. Never underestimate the 60Hz.

So, instead of the mains EMI filter rejects being capacitively coupled to real ground, they are gonna be doing it to the floating secondary ground.

Sorry, what's the point again?
 

vert

Active Member
Joined
May 30, 2018
Messages
249
Likes
216
Location
Switzerland
The Sonos amp can give you a small amp with wireless rear channels. Performance is great while you stay in digital mode.

Sonos is definitely a step in the right direction. They also have a cool (on paper) small wireless sub.
 

Thomas_A

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jun 20, 2019
Messages
2,298
Likes
1,615
Location
Sweden
I should re-visit this. I was writing the post near midnight and I assumed the colored buttons on the remote were mostly meaningless like Sony TVs. When testing from my HTPC via HDMI, it was displaying direct so perhaps there is some gain to be had in A-A with the yellow button.

I also got this as a slim 'Upgrade' to a nearly decade older Sony STR-DN1060. I still have the Sony sitting here. I wonder..... Ah, but the Sony I think only has a Zone2 Out which is assignable but I believe has a different flow. Actually, maybe I won't measure it because the hum coming from my speakers before made me diagnose a delaminated transformer.


Ah! Thank you for catching those corrections! I have added them to the OP. It is indeed quite unfortunate that D-M spent the effort to re-path PCBs and re-write firmware all while increasing MSRP and then they didn't even use parts of equivalent stature. But it all unfolded amidst a messy supply chain so it was doubtless much easier (and cheaper) to just add a part number to an existing supplier order.

I got a refurb unit from Accessories4Less in hopes it just might be an AKM, but the SN was off by 402. I'm very glad I did not pay MSRP ($1200 USD at the time). I asked D-M support if the unit could handle DSD256 in direct mode (as the manual states) and they suggested I should talk to Texas Instruments. Cest la vie.

View attachment 241529

I did my part.

View attachment 241530

And as an addendum I would like to say that the receiver as delivered didn't sound bad at all, but there was just absolutely nothing special about it; and the UI is far clunkier than Onkyo or Sony. Inoffensive (price aside) but underwhelming.
Regarding the older AKM based 1710 that I measured; it is limited to 0.5V RMS out. It is probably possible to squeeze out a few more dB THD+N at higher output.
 
Last edited:

peng

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
May 12, 2019
Messages
3,581
Likes
3,177
Regarding the older AKM based 1710 that I measured; it is limited to 0.5V RMS out. It is probably possible to squeeze out a few more dB THD+N at higher output.

That is very strange, and I thought that limit (or "the limit" whatever it is designed to be) is only for Z2?? It is worth investigated as it can't be and obviously not hardware limited.
 

peng

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
May 12, 2019
Messages
3,581
Likes
3,177
I am very interested in measuring my own gear for fun as I have quite a few. Can anyone suggest which instrument I can try to get for well under $1K, or is it even possible? I checked the QA40x series but everything seemed to be out of stock all the time.:(
 

Thomas_A

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jun 20, 2019
Messages
2,298
Likes
1,615
Location
Sweden
That is very strange, and I thought that limit (or "the limit" whatever it is designed to be) is only for Z2?? It is worth investigated as it can't be and obviously not hardware limited.
No, it is my measurements that are limited due to clipping of my ADC. It is a cheap Transit USB DAC/ADC with AKM AK4584 inside.
 

GXAlan

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 15, 2020
Messages
1,623
Likes
2,452
I am very interested in measuring my own gear for fun as I have quite a few. Can anyone suggest which instrument I can try to get for well under $1K, or is it even possible? I checked the QA40x series but everything seemed to be out of stock all the time.:(

The best bet would be something like a E1DA Cosmos with a Topping DX7+ and Pkanes Multitone tool (which also does single tone measurements).

Audiophonics still has Grade A units and they ship quickly to the US.
 
OP
D

deadwood83

Member
Joined
Sep 1, 2022
Messages
90
Likes
147
The best bet would be something like a E1DA Cosmos with a Topping DX7+ and Pkanes Multitone tool (which also does single tone measurements).

Audiophonics still has Grade A units and they ship quickly to the US.
I really love my Cosmos ADC and I really love the multitone software. It's super heavy on RAM, but the execution speed is at least 10x faster than REW and the REW Java drivers love to crash above 192kHz with the Cosmos.

The only downside is I have spent more on cables due to having the Cosmos; because suddenly I want to measure everything. It's like getting a decent set of calipers, a granite reference plate, or a sub ten-thousandth micrometer/dial indicator. My standards changed upon familiarity with the device and now a couple mV offset or clock drift over 5ppm is actually measurable and somehow frustrating.

My only complaint is the temperature sensitivity. Either keep it in a controlled environment or drop the extra $20 for the thermostat board.
 
Top Bottom