-
Welcome to ASR. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!
Questions about different types of binding post and is it truth or snake oil?
- Thread starter Jeff M.
- Start date
- Status
Do you really think in this forum that will yield any respect?
OP
Jeff M.
Active Member
- Joined
- Dec 30, 2023
- Messages
- 131
- Likes
- 53
- Thread Starter
- #24
All that I have seen and read about Viborg seems to be a sold choice from a decent company. I haven’t bought anything from them on amazon but, might to see how they hold up? Am talking the longevity of the binding post and their condition after a few years of use. I know the gold plated brass in wall binding post from parts express from 19 years ago turned green along time ago on my dad’s speakers I built him. Am not bashing or putting down parts express just shocked that it happened. I have some radio shack banana plugs from their gold series line years ago. Still look new like the day they were bought go figure? No tarnish or discoloration or green spots. My dad has the speakers in his seasonal room and they sit in the corner unused for about 3 years now. I wish I could update the binding post. Well you can share pictures if you want am always interested.
- Joined
- Aug 3, 2019
- Messages
- 1,574
- Likes
- 2,387
Much ado about nothing (audible). 
restorer-john
Grand Contributor
You should have raided my parts drawers! Random red/black 4mm banana plugs of various vintages. Some English, Japanese, US, Chinese etc.
Magnet fishing Neodymium magnet (very strong- do not stick it on your fridge...)
2 are magnetic. All the rest totally non-magnetic. One of the "magnetic" ones was the screw, not the plug itself.
There's a bunch of test leads hanging over my bench-light and all the bananas/probes sit up against a step down transformer with a pile of magnets on it. There's just one pair of banana-banana leads that sticks to the magnet. Problem is a bit overblown if you ask me.
Exactly!!
This is what I have been doing, do, will be doing, all the way throughout my audio project.
- Elimination of magnetic susceptible metals in SP signal handling: #250, #013(remote thread), #931
In my post #931, I wrote;
I still keep the currently-not-in-use "LCR passive network in outer-box " (ref. #5) for easy and smooth role back of the whole audio system into my reference single-amplifier (ACCUPHASE E-460) passive configuration together with the connection changes on the "SP cabling boards".
I once have tested “Multi-Terminal Electromagnetic Relay” and “Multi-Terminal Snap-Toggle Switch” for this purpose (i.e. switching the wires between passive and active SP modes), but I found they gave some “uncleanliness and/or distortions” to the total sound. Consequently, I believe that the “physical screw-up cabling connections” like in these SP cabling boards should be the best way to go with. I carefully and completely eliminated, therefore, any magnetic susceptible (magnetizable) metal, such as screws, Y-lugs, metal plate on terminal straps, etc. in SP high-level signal wiring; please refer to my post #4, #250 and posts #013(remote thread), #023(remote thread) and here #9(remote thread).
You would please be reminded "the typical issue case" in this regard (even with no relation at all to my project thread) happened with first version of BUCKEYE 3 Channel Purifi Amplifier in which measurable (and I think audible) distortion was caused by iron (steel) plates at the SP binding posts, then BUCKEYE quickly and nicely replaced the parts with brass plates by a kind of recall announcement; please refer to the specific thread on that amplifier, amirm’s first review pointing the issue, as well as his second preferrable review on the fixed/revised amplifier.
Furthermore, in my post #9 on a remote thread "Ferromagnetic materials in audio connectors", I also wrote as follows;
If you take a look inside some rather high-end HiFi amplifiers, you'll see that the SP output wiring (and power wiring?) uses non-magnetic terminals and screws made of brass (no iron at all) or pure copper. However, this is also a common-sense measure to prevent sound quality deterioration in HiFi amplifiers. I remember it being pointed out and explained in interviews with a Yamaha amplifier designer and a Rotel engineer. It is frustrating when working with magnetized screwdrivers (screwdrivers) because you can't catch the screws, though. Yamaha's and Rotel's amplifier designers had a hard time persuading the assembly workers at the amplifier factories, but in the end, they convinced them to use non-magnetic terminals and screws, giving priority to sound quality; I've also heard that the screwdriver, which uses a chuck to fix screws and bolts to the tip, was devised so that it could be used in factories. In my DIY audio setup, I have the same thing; I strictly/completely eliminate/avoid any magnetizable metal/screw in my SP cabling/connecting.
In my post #931, I wrote;
I still keep the currently-not-in-use "LCR passive network in outer-box " (ref. #5) for easy and smooth role back of the whole audio system into my reference single-amplifier (ACCUPHASE E-460) passive configuration together with the connection changes on the "SP cabling boards".
I once have tested “Multi-Terminal Electromagnetic Relay” and “Multi-Terminal Snap-Toggle Switch” for this purpose (i.e. switching the wires between passive and active SP modes), but I found they gave some “uncleanliness and/or distortions” to the total sound. Consequently, I believe that the “physical screw-up cabling connections” like in these SP cabling boards should be the best way to go with. I carefully and completely eliminated, therefore, any magnetic susceptible (magnetizable) metal, such as screws, Y-lugs, metal plate on terminal straps, etc. in SP high-level signal wiring; please refer to my post #4, #250 and posts #013(remote thread), #023(remote thread) and here #9(remote thread).
You would please be reminded "the typical issue case" in this regard (even with no relation at all to my project thread) happened with first version of BUCKEYE 3 Channel Purifi Amplifier in which measurable (and I think audible) distortion was caused by iron (steel) plates at the SP binding posts, then BUCKEYE quickly and nicely replaced the parts with brass plates by a kind of recall announcement; please refer to the specific thread on that amplifier, amirm’s first review pointing the issue, as well as his second preferrable review on the fixed/revised amplifier.
Furthermore, in my post #9 on a remote thread "Ferromagnetic materials in audio connectors", I also wrote as follows;
If you take a look inside some rather high-end HiFi amplifiers, you'll see that the SP output wiring (and power wiring?) uses non-magnetic terminals and screws made of brass (no iron at all) or pure copper. However, this is also a common-sense measure to prevent sound quality deterioration in HiFi amplifiers. I remember it being pointed out and explained in interviews with a Yamaha amplifier designer and a Rotel engineer. It is frustrating when working with magnetized screwdrivers (screwdrivers) because you can't catch the screws, though. Yamaha's and Rotel's amplifier designers had a hard time persuading the assembly workers at the amplifier factories, but in the end, they convinced them to use non-magnetic terminals and screws, giving priority to sound quality; I've also heard that the screwdriver, which uses a chuck to fix screws and bolts to the tip, was devised so that it could be used in factories. In my DIY audio setup, I have the same thing; I strictly/completely eliminate/avoid any magnetizable metal/screw in my SP cabling/connecting.
Last edited:
Indeed. Benchmark published some measurement results, and they showed the superiority of Neutrik connectors. I tried to find that test, but unfortunately I could not find it anymore. Here at least is their claim: https://benchmarkmedia.com/blogs/ap...mkvlHwD6uKR4OJ4FHeBV-RW29CI1qOBUMSEhQyq1jX0kr
Roland68
Major Contributor
I can easily top that, our company has been manufacturing high-energy products since the 60s and we have a wide variety of 4mm plug contacts from every decade as replacements and as samples.
If the plug gets stuck on the magnet, then it, or the lamellas, are definitely made of magnetic material, often simple sheet steel.
To test whether there is a nickel layer, put the plug on the table, hold the magnet to the plug and move it away horizontally very slowly. As soon as the plug moves slightly, there is a nickel layer. The thinner the nickel layer, the less the plug "hangs" on the magnet.
For anyone who wants to test this, you need a very strong neodymium magnet, ideally a neodymium pot magnet with a diameter of around 2cm.
I'm not even sure if it's a problem at all. In a simple comparative listening test, no difference could be heard.
And as I said, you must not forget that 99.x% of speakers in all price ranges use nickel-plated connections
(emphasis mine)
In fact, that's the entire point of plating. Being a thin layer, it would have a minimal impact on resistance, and it beats going through an oxide layer any day of the week. It works splendidly for all kinds of PC extension cards and modules. (Even nickel by itself already corrodes less easily than the base metal. A lot of multimeter probes use it.)
Making do without plating is entirely possible but ideally requires a layer of oil or grease to keep oxygen out of the contact area, although conditions in a home tend to be mild enough and contact areas of speaker terminals large enough that even bare copper tends to work fine for years. (Those living near the sea may not be so lucky, mind you.)
None of this is rocket science, really.
Last edited:
restorer-john
Grand Contributor
What's probably more concerning is wire gauge scams and iron finding it's way into wire and cables.
And when you're not using it, just store it on case of the PC, right near the HDD. Or better still, on top of that old CRT monitor you refuse to throw away.
And when you're not using it, just store it on case of the PC, right near the HDD. Or better still, on top of that old CRT monitor you refuse to throw away.
And when you're not using it, just store it on case of the PC, right near the HDD. Or better still, on top of that old CRT monitor you refuse to throw away.
sam_adams
Major Contributor
- Joined
- Dec 24, 2019
- Messages
- 1,506
- Likes
- 3,813
Any lubricant that has sufficient viscosity to not be displaced by the wiping action of the contact surfaces would adversely affect the contact resistance. Proper contact requires gas-tight contact between the conducting parts of the connectors contact surfaces—much like the bending of wirewrap wire around the sharp corners of the wirewrap pin or the compression of wire strands in a crimp connection. This wiping action of the contact surfaces removes corrosion or oxidation at the point of contact during insertion and prevents entry of any oxidizing medium.
At least I myself would be rather against your point; you would please refer to my comments below.
I essentially agree with you.
And furthermore, just for your possible interest ad reference...
I used to use CAIG DeoxIT DN5 spray connector cleaner containing some kind of deoxidant oil (highly possibly it is a long-chain unsaturated fatty acid "Oleic acid"), but later-on (in about five years) I stopped using it since I found the deoxidant oil polymerized into a kind of resin-like material (looks electrically somewhat resistance), and it even gave a very slight (acidic?) corrosion on some tin-plated metals and aluminum parts; it was not so easy to completely remove the polymerized resin using pure IPA (isopropyl alcohol) or even acetone.
It would be possible that the long-remaining long-lasting CAIG DeoxIT DN5 on the surface of metals may attract/absorb humidity water vapor (steam) into it might be causing acidic mal-reactions to the metals (as well as possible metal-catalyzed polymerization); Japan is rather humid country, especially in rainy season of June to middle of July.
After my several decades of audio journey, including the above experience, I have come to my own conclusion of using pure-tin-electroplated pure-copper crimp R-lugs and Y-lugs (crimping terminals) with AWG10 and AWG12 multicore Vinyl Cabtyre cables for my speaker cabling/wiring (ref. here #028, #137, #895, #906).
The soft very thin electroplated-pure-metal-tin on the surface of pure-copper effectively "spreads", i.e. hence increasing fresh metal-to-metal contact surface area, to give fresh non-oxidized clean tin film for the copper terminal and SP biding posts when properly/tightly screwed-up and properly crimped using pro-grade crimping tool. We can easily confirm such new pure-tin surface by looking at the shining pure-metal-tin area after screwing-up.
For my semiannual complete cleaning of all the metal-to-metal connectors, I dare to use only pure IPA (isopropyl alcohol) together with cotton swabs having compressed paper rods (ref. #671 and #895).
As for the polymerization of the fatty-acid oil containing in CAIG DeoxIT DN5, @MCH and myself, both have Ph.D. degree in chemistry-oriented science, had rather intensive and invaluable discussion on my project thread (ref. #676, #677, #678, #680, #682).
As for the pros of "crimping" over "soldering", please refer to my post #904.
In my post #904, I wrote;
Regarding your specific point (solder or not on crimped spades/terminals), I once contacted with three of the companies producing tin-electroplating oxygen-free pure copper terminals. All of them answered that "You should never solder the crimped terminals!!" since the soldered portion may crack afterword if you would slightly bend the terminal (which would occur rather frequently) for screwing on the terminal-posts/binding-posts. In the worst case, the cracked solder chip may drop onto other electric/electronic parts and may cause unrecoverable short-circuit damages and even fire accidents... (It looks this is a common sense in electric/electronic engineering world and is a fundamental educational tip in the industry).
The market-top company continued saying... If the crimping is done properly and tightly using exactly-size-matched pro-use robust crimper, the connection is made by crushing the wire and the contact at the same time. When crushing the contact, the wire is also crushed at the same time, so the wire extends. In this case, the cross-sectional area decreases after the plastic zone (the zone of permanent deformation). At this time, plastic deformation occurs, so the tensile strength becomes stronger. (It becomes stronger because the upper limit of the elastic range increases.) The residual stress at this time makes the wire and contact strongly connected. In this process, the oxide film on the surface of the wire and the oxide film on the surface of the contact come into contact with each other after being peeled off by friction, so the contact resistance becomes very low.
Regarding your specific point (solder or not on crimped spades/terminals), I once contacted with three of the companies producing tin-electroplating oxygen-free pure copper terminals. All of them answered that "You should never solder the crimped terminals!!" since the soldered portion may crack afterword if you would slightly bend the terminal (which would occur rather frequently) for screwing on the terminal-posts/binding-posts. In the worst case, the cracked solder chip may drop onto other electric/electronic parts and may cause unrecoverable short-circuit damages and even fire accidents... (It looks this is a common sense in electric/electronic engineering world and is a fundamental educational tip in the industry).
The market-top company continued saying... If the crimping is done properly and tightly using exactly-size-matched pro-use robust crimper, the connection is made by crushing the wire and the contact at the same time. When crushing the contact, the wire is also crushed at the same time, so the wire extends. In this case, the cross-sectional area decreases after the plastic zone (the zone of permanent deformation). At this time, plastic deformation occurs, so the tensile strength becomes stronger. (It becomes stronger because the upper limit of the elastic range increases.) The residual stress at this time makes the wire and contact strongly connected. In this process, the oxide film on the surface of the wire and the oxide film on the surface of the contact come into contact with each other after being peeled off by friction, so the contact resistance becomes very low.
- Elimination of magnetic susceptible metals in SP signal handling: #250, #013(remote thread), #931
In my post #931, I wrote;
I still keep the currently-not-in-use "LCR passive network in outer-box " (ref. #5) for easy and smooth role back of the whole audio system into my reference single-amplifier (ACCUPHASE E-460) passive configuration together with the connection changes on the "SP cabling boards".
I once have tested “Multi-Terminal Electromagnetic Relay” and “Multi-Terminal Snap-Toggle Switch” for this purpose (i.e. switching the wires between passive and active SP modes), but I found they gave some “uncleanliness and/or distortions” to the total sound. Consequently, I believe that the “physical screw-up cabling connections” like in these SP cabling boards should be the best way to go with. I carefully and completely eliminated, therefore, any magnetic susceptible (magnetizable) metal, such as screws, Y-lugs, metal plate on terminal straps, etc. in SP high-level signal wiring; please refer to my post #4, #250 and posts #013(remote thread), #023(remote thread) and here #9(remote thread).
You would please be reminded "the typical issue case" in this regard (even with no relation at all to my project thread) happened with first version of BUCKEYE 3 Channel Purifi Amplifier in which measurable (and I think audible) distortion was caused by iron (steel) plates at the SP binding posts, then BUCKEYE quickly and nicely replaced the parts with brass plates by a kind of recall announcement; please refer to the specific thread on that amplifier, amirm’s first review pointing the issue, as well as his second preferrable review on the fixed/revised amplifier.
Furthermore, in my post #9 on a remote thread "Ferromagnetic materials in audio connectors", I also wrote as follows;
If you take a look inside some rather high-end HiFi amplifiers, you'll see that the SP output wiring (and power wiring?) uses non-magnetic terminals and screws made of brass (no iron at all) or pure copper. However, this is also a common-sense measure to prevent sound quality deterioration in HiFi amplifiers. I remember it being pointed out and explained in interviews with a Yamaha amplifier designer and a Rotel engineer. It is frustrating when working with magnetized screwdrivers (screwdrivers) because you can't catch the screws, though. Yamaha's and Rotel's amplifier designers had a hard time persuading the assembly workers at the amplifier factories, but in the end, they convinced them to use non-magnetic terminals and screws, giving priority to sound quality; I've also heard that the screwdriver, which uses a chuck to fix screws and bolts to the tip, was devised so that it could be used in factories. In my DIY audio setup, I have the same thing; I strictly/completely eliminate/avoid any magnetizable metal/screw in my SP cabling/connecting.
I still keep the currently-not-in-use "LCR passive network in outer-box " (ref. #5) for easy and smooth role back of the whole audio system into my reference single-amplifier (ACCUPHASE E-460) passive configuration together with the connection changes on the "SP cabling boards".
I once have tested “Multi-Terminal Electromagnetic Relay” and “Multi-Terminal Snap-Toggle Switch” for this purpose (i.e. switching the wires between passive and active SP modes), but I found they gave some “uncleanliness and/or distortions” to the total sound. Consequently, I believe that the “physical screw-up cabling connections” like in these SP cabling boards should be the best way to go with. I carefully and completely eliminated, therefore, any magnetic susceptible (magnetizable) metal, such as screws, Y-lugs, metal plate on terminal straps, etc. in SP high-level signal wiring; please refer to my post #4, #250 and posts #013(remote thread), #023(remote thread) and here #9(remote thread).
You would please be reminded "the typical issue case" in this regard (even with no relation at all to my project thread) happened with first version of BUCKEYE 3 Channel Purifi Amplifier in which measurable (and I think audible) distortion was caused by iron (steel) plates at the SP binding posts, then BUCKEYE quickly and nicely replaced the parts with brass plates by a kind of recall announcement; please refer to the specific thread on that amplifier, amirm’s first review pointing the issue, as well as his second preferrable review on the fixed/revised amplifier.
Furthermore, in my post #9 on a remote thread "Ferromagnetic materials in audio connectors", I also wrote as follows;
If you take a look inside some rather high-end HiFi amplifiers, you'll see that the SP output wiring (and power wiring?) uses non-magnetic terminals and screws made of brass (no iron at all) or pure copper. However, this is also a common-sense measure to prevent sound quality deterioration in HiFi amplifiers. I remember it being pointed out and explained in interviews with a Yamaha amplifier designer and a Rotel engineer. It is frustrating when working with magnetized screwdrivers (screwdrivers) because you can't catch the screws, though. Yamaha's and Rotel's amplifier designers had a hard time persuading the assembly workers at the amplifier factories, but in the end, they convinced them to use non-magnetic terminals and screws, giving priority to sound quality; I've also heard that the screwdriver, which uses a chuck to fix screws and bolts to the tip, was devised so that it could be used in factories. In my DIY audio setup, I have the same thing; I strictly/completely eliminate/avoid any magnetizable metal/screw in my SP cabling/connecting.
In any way, after my long years on audio exploration, I now do believe periodical (semiannual or annual) intensive clean-up with 100 % IPA should be the best way to keep "good shape" of all the metal-to-metal connectors/contacts in our audio system!
If you would be interested in details of the latest system setup of my PC-DSP-based multichannel multi-SP-drive multi-amplifier fully active audio setup, please visit my post #931 on my project thread.
Last edited:
OP
Jeff M.
Active Member
- Joined
- Dec 30, 2023
- Messages
- 131
- Likes
- 53
- Thread Starter
- #36
You know this brings me back to my childhood due to building An H.O. train layout with my dad at a young age. They always said nickel plated copper was the best conductor back in the 80’s next to pure copper. The Nickel plated copper got very little black electrical residue compared to the pure copper. I only had to wipe the track every now and then with a normal dry cleaning cloth. I know this has nothing to do with binding post but, I wanted to share what I experienced and yes it was magnetic. How much I don’t remember due to all the freight cars having plastic wheels but, the engine and they were all some kind of metal.
restorer-john
Grand Contributor
The best track was "nickel silver" branded. Like Peco. Atlas was the American 'gold' track which was totally sh#t here.
I have tons of it in my storeroom for the grandchildren I will most likely never get...
OP
Jeff M.
Active Member
- Joined
- Dec 30, 2023
- Messages
- 131
- Likes
- 53
- Thread Starter
- #38
I think the brand we used could have been walter’s or Atlas the more expensive track? Or maybe bachmann’s? I never saw the brand just had shipped in a box for me from what my dad picked out at a hobby store. A shame he was to busy in my childhood to help finish and complete the H.O. layout we started. I love my dad but, time stands still for no one.
- Joined
- Aug 3, 2019
- Messages
- 1,574
- Likes
- 2,387
"Nickel silver" is also the metal of choice for chrome plated electric guitar pickup housings, nowadays considered preferable to brass for that application. It has no actual silver content -- it's a copper, nickel, and zinc alloy.
gfinlays
Senior Member
I haven't used binding posts for years. Neutrik Speakons or bust.
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked
