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Questioning the MiniDSP 2x4 sound quality.

Doodski

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Interesting, using mobile crossover. Thanks for the idea.
There's something about having a physical knob for each adjustment and being able to see all the settings right on one surface. I prefer it over a DSP software setup in that way. That and mobile crossovers are a dime a dozen these days.
 

Pdxwayne

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There's something about having a physical knob for each adjustment and being able to see all the settings right on one surface. I prefer it over a DSP software setup in that way. That and mobile crossovers are a dime a dozen these days.
Nice one you have. I wonder if there is anything as good as yours in Amazon....
 

Doodski

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Nice one you have. I wonder if there is anything as good as yours in Amazon....
I check ebay.com from time to time and have seen the Coustic XM-7 for sale. Amazon does have electronic crossovers. I have no idea about the quality of them. The circuitry required to make one and the design is pretty basic when one knows how to calculate and implement op-amps. So that's why they don't cost a arm and a leg. That Coustic XM-7 was CDN $1200.00 when new but these days they don't cost anywhere near that as you will see.
 

mdsimon2

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There's something about having a physical knob for each adjustment and being able to see all the settings right on one surface. I prefer it over a DSP software setup in that way. That and mobile crossovers are a dime a dozen these days.

Wow, blast from the past! I used a XM7 in my very first fully active car audio setup but eventually moved to DSP for more flexibility (originally using an Eclipse 8053 head unit and then eventually a 12 V modded DBx Driverack PA). I think I might still have the XM7 somewhere in my parent's basement.

Michael
 

Doodski

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Wow, blast from the past! I used a XM7 in my very first fully active car audio setup but eventually moved to DSP for more flexibility (originally using an Eclipse 8053 head unit and then eventually a 12 V modded DBx Driverack PA). I think I might still have the XM7 somewhere in my parent's basement.

Michael
I serviced Coustic at the time as the national warranty depot and overall I think the XM-7 is a solid unit. There was a lower crossover model that had a issue with the small PWM +/- power supply frying 4 small transistors but the XM-7 never had a issue and I know because I serviced a tonne of Coustic gear and did all the Coustic service from across Canada that other techs didn't want to service or could not service. It's a nice unit perhaps passing it along to another user is in the cards? @Pdxwayne might be interested... :p
 
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mugbot

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Are you talking about the sound of the DAC or the sound of the Dirac correction?

You know it is possible to use another USB DAC instead of the DDRC-24 internal DAC if you use a RPi running CamillaDSP? MOTU M4 is a great option for this if you want a decently priced 4 channel balanced DAC.

Michael

How do you get the digital signal out of the DDRC-24? I was under the impression it's only analog out?
 

mdsimon2

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How do you get the digital signal out of the DDRC-24? I was under the impression it's only analog out?

It involves a RPi and CamillaDSP but it is honestly not too difficult to setup. I posted some details in this post -> #25. Definitely takes away some of the cost advantage of the DDRC-24 when you add the RPi and an additional DAC but it is a nice solution if you want TOSLINK or analog input and Dirac with a higher performance DAC (again Motu M4 is a great option). The RPi also makes it pretty easy to add a display which IMO is one of the biggest issues with the DDRC.

That being said If your system is already PC or Mac based I would probably just get a Dirac license and a USB DAC.

Michael
 

mdsimon2

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It involves a RPi and CamillaDSP but it is honestly not too difficult to setup. I posted some details in this post -> #25. Definitely takes away some of the cost advantage of the DDRC-24 when you add the RPi and an additional DAC but it is a nice solution if you want TOSLINK or analog input and Dirac with a higher performance DAC (again Motu M4 is a great option). The RPi also makes it pretty easy to add a display which IMO is one of the biggest issues with the DDRC.

That being said If your system is already PC or Mac based I would probably just get a Dirac license and a USB DAC.

Michael

Also, for those looking for quantification of the performance in this setup, TOSLINK in to USB out is transparent to say the least. You will definitely be limited by whatever USB DAC you use, not the DDRC.

2X4HD TOSLINK in - USB out - RTA.jpg


Michael
 

mugbot

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It involves a RPi and CamillaDSP but it is honestly not too difficult to setup. I posted some details in this post -> #25. Definitely takes away some of the cost advantage of the DDRC-24 when you add the RPi and an additional DAC but it is a nice solution if you want TOSLINK or analog input and Dirac with a higher performance DAC (again Motu M4 is a great option). The RPi also makes it pretty easy to add a display which IMO is one of the biggest issues with the DDRC.

That being said If your system is already PC or Mac based I would probably just get a Dirac license and a USB DAC.

Michael

My system uses a chromecast audio outputting via optical, rather than a PC. I do have an unused NUC sitting around though, so that might be a possibility. I like the control via plexamp for chromecast though, so that might be a challenge to replicate. I'll have a read of your post - thanks for the response!
 

julesqn

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Which analog crossover are you using?

Thanks!
Wow, that was an awesome crossover Doodski posted! I don't have a good answer for a standalone crossover unit. For my projects, I just gave up on my multi-amp scheme (for doing an active crossover in some Infinity speakers) and went back to just using the passive crossover. Right now I've been playing with the miniDSP to integrate a passive 12" subwoofer with the JBL 305P. It's working OK - bass filters happen to sound fine and JBL hiss balances miniDSP hiss at 60% volume :) - but the "haze" it's putting on the speakers is bothering me a lot. I will probably just buy a plate amp w/ crossover to install in the passive sub, or buy the JBL LSR310S sub.
 

Night&Day

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I registered just to add my voice to the chorus of "MiniDSP 2x4HD sounds noticeably bad". I can't believe how many people are trying to make it sound like you're crazy for hearing it. I've tested with several speaker/amp/dac combos, inserting it - with no processing engaged - in between the DAC's analog output (volume controlled) and the amps (or active speakers).

Issues:
1. Distortion from bass filters. There are many ways to set the bass filters such that they produce measurable and audible distortion. All of these are perfectly legal from using the MiniDSP GUI - I'm not even talking biquads imported from REW (which distort even worse). Yes, I made sure there's no clipping anywhere, and this behaviour is exhibited even with only cut filters.
2. Hiss. Very audible in this scenario (since miniDSP output is being amplified at full gain).
3. Loss of clarity / punch. Yes, this is real! It doesn't sound outright "bad" - just "worse than without it". To me, that makes it unusable. This is less of an issue when you use the MiniDSP digital inputs, but its still bad.

It's a hard scenario to get right because MiniDSP converters are dealing with really low input and output signals, and full-scale amplification of the unit's hiss. But this is the exact scenario that the MiniDSP is designed for! We aren't going to use a 4-channel analog volume control after the MiniDSP to trim down the hiss level and allow higher input and output...

So, although it offers fantastic flexibility for integrating subs, or a 2 way crossover with correction, the degredation in quality eventually gets to me and the MiniDSP returns to the drawer, to be replaced by an analog crossover (plus software room correction).
The gain on the outputs can be boosted 12 dB. In my experience the miniDSP sounds "right" after that adjustment. I also only lower peaks in my filters.
 

Jerderv

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1. Constrained sound.
Not sure if it is lack of dynamic range or what it is. But at any volume level the sound is squashed/constrained.
3. Loss of clarity / punch. Yes, this is real! It doesn't sound outright "bad" - just "worse than without it". To me, that makes it unusable. This is less of an issue when you use the MiniDSP digital inputs, but its still bad.

So I just recently went from an SMSL q5 pro powering my bookshelf speakers to a SMSL SU-6 DAC ran to my miniDSP(nonHD) to a crown xls1502. I was watching a movie with my wife when something started to bother me. The sound while loud, felt less dynamic and explosions, action scenes, and things like glass breaking seemed lesser. The impact of these scenes felt flat. I connected the Su-6 dac directly to the amp and found that the sound improved greatly and was back to sounding more 3D. So I started googling for peoples experiences with the miniDSP regarding sound loss and found this thread. Add me to the list of people who are unsatisfied with what the minidsp is doing to the signal. Still going to use the minidsp for my subwoofer but ill just use the crossover on the crown for the bookshelfs.

What a bummer.
 

Everett T

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So I just recently went from an SMSL q5 pro powering my bookshelf speakers to a SMSL SU-6 DAC ran to my miniDSP(nonHD) to a crown xls1502. I was watching a movie with my wife when something started to bother me. The sound while loud, felt less dynamic and explosions, action scenes, and things like glass breaking seemed lesser. The impact of these scenes felt flat. I connected the Su-6 dac directly to the amp and found that the sound improved greatly and was back to sounding more 3D. So I started googling for peoples experiences with the miniDSP regarding sound loss and found this thread. Add me to the list of people who are unsatisfied with what the minidsp is doing to the signal. Still going to use the minidsp for my subwoofer but ill just use the crossover on the crown for the bookshelfs.

What a bummer.
Are you EQing above your room transition?
 

Jerderv

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Are you EQing above your room transition?
I am quite new to the game and was unfamiliar with what the transition frequency was. After some googling, yes I had a couple EQ points above 300hz that pulled down some peaks. With that being said, yesterday when I was doing my A-B comparison DSP/NO DSP I disabled all EQ and removed the crossover on the DSP, I set the crossover on the crown amp at 63hz. I left the subwoofer amp powered off for the comparison. I compared one song and one movie scene. That simple test led me to this thread as there was a noticeable difference. Im happy to do more testing if anyone has ideas. Is there a way I can use REW and my UMM-6 to try and measure what im hearing?
 

Everett T

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I am quite new to the game and was unfamiliar with what the transition frequency was. After some googling, yes I had a couple EQ points above 300hz that pulled down some peaks. With that being said, yesterday when I was doing my A-B comparison DSP/NO DSP I disabled all EQ and removed the crossover on the DSP, I set the crossover on the crown amp at 63hz. I left the subwoofer amp powered off for the comparison. I compared one song and one movie scene. That simple test led me to this thread as there was a noticeable difference. Im happy to do more testing if anyone has ideas. Is there a way I can use REW and my UMM-6 to try and measure what im hearing?
I'd leave the frequencies above the transition alone if it were me unless something is a disaster, which could be felt with a few ways other then EQ. I'm assuming you used REW to determine what filters to use, so take sweeps without any EQ applied, with the full EQ, and then just EQ below the transition and post them.
 

GimeDsp

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So I just recently went from an SMSL q5 pro powering my bookshelf speakers to a SMSL SU-6 DAC ran to my miniDSP(nonHD) to a crown xls1502. I was watching a movie with my wife when something started to bother me. The sound while loud, felt less dynamic and explosions, action scenes, and things like glass breaking seemed lesser. The impact of these scenes felt flat. I connected the Su-6 dac directly to the amp and found that the sound improved greatly and was back to sounding more 3D. So I started googling for peoples experiences with the miniDSP regarding sound loss and found this thread. Add me to the list of people who are unsatisfied with what the minidsp is doing to the signal. Still going to use the minidsp for my subwoofer but ill just use the crossover on the crown for the bookshelfs.

What a bummer.
that's the way I felt too. I have lots of DAC's and a few DSP's and EQs and they all are good for me accept the mini DSP.
I guess it all depends on the person.
 

mdsimon2

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I am quite new to the game and was unfamiliar with what the transition frequency was. After some googling, yes I had a couple EQ points above 300hz that pulled down some peaks. With that being said, yesterday when I was doing my A-B comparison DSP/NO DSP I disabled all EQ and removed the crossover on the DSP, I set the crossover on the crown amp at 63hz. I left the subwoofer amp powered off for the comparison. I compared one song and one movie scene. That simple test led me to this thread as there was a noticeable difference. Im happy to do more testing if anyone has ideas. Is there a way I can use REW and my UMM-6 to try and measure what im hearing?

Highly unlikely you will be able tell anything from a mic and it will have a lot of variability, much better to make electronic measurements.

What does your gain structure look like? I assume you have a 2 V input 2x4 which is attenuating the output to 0.9 V? That would be an obvious reason for why it is less dynamic as you have half the output voltage of the DAC itself.

Michael
 

Tangband

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Question for you guys about the Minidsp 2x4 (Non HD) My unit was purchased in 2015 and it is the old Rev A version with 0.9vRMS.

Using this with a Windows PC based system to control two studio monitors and a sub. it is being fed by a hiFime S2 DAC. I am trying to upgrade my Creative Soundblaster AE-7 soundcard. It has rudimentary crossover and bass management. Sounds OK but can be kind of noisey and i feel there must be better options.

I have been swapping around different components and noticing that the 2x4 doesnt sound very good through the analog inputs. Horrible actually. seems like very poor dynamic range. I tried using my Creative soundcards stereo outputs into the miniDSP and it sounded lifeless and lowfi. Terrible. The sound has the same quality of my motherboards soundcard. Going from a USB DAC into the minidsp 2x4 is the same. I thought it was the cheap DAC I was using initally but trying the DSP on the soundcard showed this was not the case. i upgraded the DAC somewhat to a 9038 based unit and the minidsp is still crushing the sound.

I love the control but not the quality it is outputting overall. Would the 2x4HD or even the DDRC-24 sound better through analog inputs? (I have read the DAC on the 2x4 HD isnt very good.) Would i have to step way up to get great sound quality by purchasing the miniDSP SHD? i want the DSP control between my monitors and subs like the minidsp provides but this sound is a deal breaker.

Anyone have any thoughts on this? I noted a review here of the SHD and it seems like a great unit. That's alot of money though and i don't need streaming at all. Was also considering the emotiva PT-100 preamp and using the 2x4 off the sub outputs.

Any thoughts or recommendations would be greatly appreciated
What you hear is right. The mini dsp with analog input is a very poor sounding device. You can do a bit better with digital input with mini-dsp but the sound, even then, will not be very good. A good, passive crossover will sound much better.
Unfortunately, going fully digital with separate units and good listening results is not gonna be cheap, even at year 2022. Look for something like Xilica, DEQX or buy a SAM Genelec.

Less good digital gear often bring a less dynamic sound in my experience. A little bit like comparing Spotify 320 Kbit/s to TIDAL , but more so.

The result is less enjoyment when listening to music.
 
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Jerderv

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I'd leave the frequencies above the transition alone if it were me unless something is a disaster, which could be felt with a few ways other then EQ. I'm assuming you used REW to determine what filters to use, so take sweeps without any EQ applied, with the full EQ, and then just EQ below the transition and post them.
Noted, If I choose to use the DSP again in the future I will certainly try that. However I dont think EQing with that method will fix whats wrong with the sound from the miniDSP.
Highly unlikely you will be able tell anything from a mic and it will have a lot of variability, much better to make electronic measurements.

What does your gain structure look like? I assume you have a 2 V input 2x4 which is attenuating the output to 0.9 V? That would be an obvious reason for why it is less dynamic as you have half the output voltage of the DAC itself.

Michael
Understandable, I do wish there was a better way for me to convey what im hearing, I dont know how to measure or capture it.

Yes, my A-B testing was done with the miniDSP configured to the 2v input and .9v output. In the software the input gain is set to 0db as well as the output gain. I had the crown amp set to 1.4v input sensitivity with the gain knob set to the 3 o-clock position. When I ran the SU-6 directly to the crown amp I turned the gain knob down to the 1 o clock position in an attempt to keep the level about the same as it was with the DSP. It was certainly far from scientific but the difference is certainly there. For me personally its far more noticeable in movie scenes than with music. Its noticeable enough in movies that it bothers me and I end up just listening to how disappointing the audio is instead of actually enjoying the movie.

I did have the miniDSP set to the .9v input configuration to start however it would audibly clip above -10 on the SU-6. Maybe I should set it back and retry my A-B test? I could set the miniDSP to .9v in .9v out and the crown amp to .77v in, would that be more ideal?
that's the way I felt too. I have lots of DAC's and a few DSP's and EQs and they all are good for me accept the mini DSP.
I guess it all depends on the person.
Any DSPs in the same price range that you would recommend as a replacement to the mini DSP?
 

mdsimon2

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Noted, If I choose to use the DSP again in the future I will certainly try that. However I dont think EQing with that method will fix whats wrong with the sound from the miniDSP.

Understandable, I do wish there was a better way for me to convey what im hearing, I dont know how to measure or capture it.

Yes, my A-B testing was done with the miniDSP configured to the 2v input and .9v output. In the software the input gain is set to 0db as well as the output gain. I had the crown amp set to 1.4v input sensitivity with the gain knob set to the 3 o-clock position. When I ran the SU-6 directly to the crown amp I turned the gain knob down to the 1 o clock position in an attempt to keep the level about the same as it was with the DSP. It was certainly far from scientific but the difference is certainly there. For me personally its far more noticeable in movie scenes than with music. Its noticeable enough in movies that it bothers me and I end up just listening to how disappointing the audio is instead of actually enjoying the movie.

I did have the miniDSP set to the .9v input configuration to start however it would audibly clip above -10 on the SU-6. Maybe I should set it back and retry my A-B test? I could set the miniDSP to .9v in .9v out and the crown amp to .77v in, would that be more ideal?

Any DSPs in the same price range that you would recommend as a replacement to the mini DSP?

OK, that is a lot of uncontrolled variables.

To do a proper comparison you need to keep the amplifier input sensitivity and gain knob position constant. I agree that using the 0.9 V setting on the miniDSP and lower input sensitivity on the amplifier would allow for a more apples to apples comparison. I would also verify that the miniDSP is not attenuating output at the 0.9 V input setting by playing a test tone and measuring the SU-6 output voltage and then routing the SU-6 to the miniDSP and measuring the miniDSP output voltage.

All that being said the 2X4 obviously has limited output voltage and an objectively rather poor ADC/DAC but I would expect that to manifest itself in increased hiss, not lack of dynamics.

In terms of alternative DSPs the 2X4HD is a bit of step up in performance and would allow you to eliminate the SU-6 and the additional DA/AD that comes with it by taking an optical or USB input (unsure of what your source is upstream of the SU-6). Newly announced miniDSP Flex has much better spec'd analog performance but is quite a bit more expensive.

Honestly one of the cheapest ways to get improved analog performance would be to find a used nanoDIGI like this -> https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/fs-minidsp-nanodigi-2x8-b.29647/ and add 2 decent performance $100 DACs.

Michael
 
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