Question regarding technical parameters of LPs.

[Willem]

It is a free world but ASR is about getting technical excellence without wasting money. For me an expensive turntable is like a Totaldac.

 

[Robin L]

Peter Craven.

 

[watchnerd]

It is a free world but ASR is about getting technical excellence without wasting money. For me an expensive turntable is like a Totaldac.

You'll have to explain that one.

The TotalDAC is a poorly engineered product that doesn't do what a DAC is supposed to do.

In contrast, the Technics SL-1210GR is a very well-engineered product that does a very good job at doing what a turntable is supposed to do:

https://www.technics.com/uk/products/grand-class/direct-drive-turntable-system-sl-1210gr.html

Now maybe the SL-1210GR isn't expensive enough to meet the criteria you're referring to, but it ain't cheap. Although I wouldn't call it a waste of money if one wants to play LPs.

If one doesn't want to play LPs, sure, it's as useful as tits on a boar.

 

[Robin L]

You'll have to explain that one.

The TotalDAC is a poorly engineered product that doesn't do what a DAC is supposed to do.

In contrast, the Technics SL-1210GR is a very well-engineered product that does a very good job at doing what a turntable is supposed to do:

https://www.technics.com/uk/products/grand-class/direct-drive-turntable-system-sl-1210gr.html

Now maybe the SL-1210GR isn't expensive enough to meet the criteria you're referring to, but it ain't cheap. Although I wouldn't call it a waste of money if one wants to play LPs.

If one doesn't want to play LPs, sure, it's as useful as tits on a boar.

No doubt, for those that require such things.

Technics revived DJ 'tables represent excellent value for money. Cheaper than an LP 12, stays in tune, super-stable, super quiet.

If I really wanted a workhorse turntable, this would be on my short-list.

But I don't want to hear an LP again.

 

[watchnerd]

But I don't want to hear an LP again.

Which is absolutely fine.

But I also don't think it's fair to equate the efforts and quality engineering Technics put into making a SOTA 21st-century workhorse turntable (as anachronistic as it may be) with the farce and snake-oil that is TotalDAC.

 

[Robin L]

Which is absolutely fine.

But I also don't think it's fair to equate the efforts and quality engineering Technics put into making a SOTA 21st-century workhorse turntable (as anachronistic as it may be) with the farce and snake-oil that is TotalDAC.

Well, I didn't say that and wouldn't say that.

My last turntable was an early Technics direct drive, not the DJ 1200 series, but a semi-automatic where you set down the needle with a damped tonearm lift and the 'table returns the arm when the disc is over. Good turntable. I was making needledrops for other people. Had an additional Gerrard with a ceramic flipover stylus for 78s. A dual-well [$10] Onkyo cassette deck from a thrift store. All to make CDs/flash drives. Most of what I had to transfer was very old, in bad/horrible condition.

It's gonna take a long time to clean that sound out of my ears.

Remember, it's not something like the new Technics 'tables that set me off. It's $50,000.00 tonearms. That's another country.

 

[watchnerd]

Remember, it's not something like the new Technics 'tables that set me off. It's $50,000.00 tonearms. That's another country.

Fair enough, by this is hardly a vinyl-only problem.

Witness the $130,000 DAC/headphone amp stack from MSB ($38k for the headphone amp alone):

https://www.theverge.com/2016/8/15/12480856/select-dac-ii-amplifier-audiophile-experience

One might argue that this is even more egregious given that electro-mechanical issues of vinyl are hard to solve vs digital and solid state amplification for headphones, which is transparent at cheap prices.

 

[Frank Dernie]

It is a free world but ASR is about getting technical excellence without wasting money. For me an expensive turntable is like a Totaldac.

I agree, and I have one, bought in the 1980s though.

 

[Eirikur]

Mastering

Careful with this one: these guys don't seem to understand (or want to explain explain) digital audio very well, judged from their image of digital quantization noise and the analogies they make between digital bandwidth limitations and outer/inner groove differences.

BTW: outer groove of a 12" is max. ø11.5" and inner min. ø4.75" according to RIAA specs, this makes for a circumference difference of ~36" v.s. ~15". At 33⅓ RPM this works out to ~20 IPS vs. ~8.3 IPS.
Any heavy impulse on the inner track will send your stylus into the wallpaper (please invite me for that)!

 

[Willem]

My turntable is from 1976, but the cartridge is recent. My comparison with the Total DAC is not one of the quality of the engineering, because Technics and a few others did a remarkable job given the limitations of the medium. Foir that reason I stil enjoy watching my SME arm like I enjoy old cameras like Nikon, Leica etc. The comparison relates to the new wave of consumers who now claim that vinyl is actually superior to digital sources and hence justifies sky high prices.

 

[anmpr1]

Why did Fremer dump on me like a load of bricks [or something like that]...

If that's all he dumped on you, consider yourself lucky. This character is one of the most obnoxious individuals ever to take up pen. Other reviewers may be naive, ignorant, hackneyed, or misinformed. But most are not downright petulant and petty. Check out the guy's interactions with Arthur Salvatore, at the latter's blog. Totally out of control.

http://www.high-endaudio.com/RR-FREMER-A.html
http://www.high-endaudio.com/RR-FREMER.html

The funniest (or most pathetic, depending upon one's view) was his flipping out in public on Peter Aczel (I think it was a CES trade show, or some such). Fremer loudly accused Aczel of ad hominem attacks in his magazine. Peter quipped back, something to the effect of "who is the homo?"--playing off the Latin prefix, ad. Fremer thought Aczel was calling him queer, not understanding the meaning of the Latin words.

As far as ad hominem goes, it is not always an argumentative fallacy, when the issue is indeed the person. In Fremer's case, that is a likely possibility--at least if one is expecting civil interactions with the man.

 

[watchnerd]

The comparison relates to the new wave of consumers who now claim that vinyl is actually superior to digital sources and hence justifies sky high prices.

Maybe I'm not hanging in the right places, but I haven't seen a lot of new vinyl supremacists with deep pockets being born. Most of the vinyl supremacists with big money seem to be old boomers like Fremer, not a new wave.

Price seems to go in the opposite direction amongst young hipsters -- more likely to get into vinyl and then buy a cheap Crosley portable record player.

 

[Willem]

I did not mean that the new wave was young in age. They mostly seem to be older people with degenerated hearing wanting to play the horribly recorded music of their youth.

 

[digitalfrost]

It is a free world but ASR is about getting technical excellence without wasting money. For me an expensive turntable is like a Totaldac.

I agree, but as with anything mechanical, good quality costs money. For me, a good turntable has to be able to hold steady speed and not inject motor noise into the playback, so either a good direct drive or an adjustable belt drive.

Then you need to ability to regulate VTA. These requirements alone will get you at > 1000$ turntables. A good cartridge is not cheap either, and I think you absolutely need a preamp that can adjust cartridge loading unless you buy a combo that is already matched correctly.

 

[anmpr1]

Maybe I'm not hanging in the right places, but I haven't seen a lot of new vinyl supremacists with deep pockets being born. Most of the vinyl supremacists with big seem to be old boomers like Fremer, not a new wave.

Price seems to go in the opposite direction amongst young hipsters -- more likely to get into vinyl and then buy a cheap Crosley portable record player.

I get a Crutchfield catalog in the mail once in a while. They have a turntable section... most is low to moderate priced. You can get something with a cartridge, and often a phono preamp under the hood, for less than four hundred dollars.

Let's face it. One has to be well heeled financially to afford the high (or even medium) priced spread, and few youngsters can afford that. Fremer (and other reviewers) can write their spiel because of a steady supply of stuff from manufacturers. It's not coming out of their pocket. So they can label a five thousand dollar cartridge a 'bargain', and not feel any shame. They've lost any touch with reality.

Who knows if a guy like Fremer believes what he writes? Or believes anything? And how long would the free stuff last if he admitted, "Yeah... truth is, phono is substandard, from a sonic standpoint. Sonically you'd be better off spending your cash on downloads." Is that what Ortofon or SME want to read about, in their reviews?

You have to look at what these people do as low brow entertainment. The hi-fi equivalent of pro-wrestling. Or use it as a drinking game. Have to take a swig every time they use one of their catch phrases:

This blows everything else in its price class away...
Even my wife could tell the difference as she was making me a sandwich in the kitchen...
You can really hear the air between the notes...
It has more slam than you'd expect for the price...
It has the pace and timing of something selling for twice the price...
It has good warmth and weight, almost approaching that of my reference, at three times the price...
It effortlessly replicates the note pattern's pulsing, strobe-like character without sacrificing its flow....
It has that 'low end' growl...
It has excellent touch, liquid midrange body, and glowing, woody tone, though lacking the last word in low-frequency extension and realistic weight of the instrument.

Apologies to Stereophile for lifting some of the above from their 'glowing' review of a five or six watt Luxman tube integrated amp, that sells for about the price of an AHB2.

 

[Eirikur]

This blows everything else in its price class away...
Even my wife could tell the difference as she was making me a sandwich in the kitchen...
You can really hear the air between the notes...
It has more slam than you'd expect for the price...
It has the pace and timing of something selling for twice the price...
It has good warmth and weight, almost approaching that of my reference, at three times the price...
It effortlessly replicates the note pattern's pulsing, strobe-like character without sacrificing its flow....
It has that 'low end' growl...
It has excellent touch, liquid midrange body, and glowing, woody tone, though lacking the last word in low-frequency extension and realistic weight of the instrument.

Replace "it" be "she" and you might as well be describing a high-class professional escort, the 2nd one being a particular fetish. Anyway, enough about me...

 

[Sal1950]

It is a free world but ASR is about getting technical excellence without wasting money. For me any turntable is like a Totaldac.

There, I fixed it for you. LOL

If one doesn't want to play LPs, sure, it's as useful as tits on a boar.

Now you got it.

 

[Sal1950]

This blows everything else in its price class away...
Even my wife could tell the difference as she was making me a sandwich in the kitchen...
You can really hear the air between the notes...
It has more slam than you'd expect for the price...
It has the pace and timing of something selling for twice the price...
It has good warmth and weight, almost approaching that of my reference, at three times the price...
It effortlessly replicates the note pattern's pulsing, strobe-like character without sacrificing its flow....
It has that 'low end' growl...
It has excellent touch, liquid midrange body, and glowing, woody tone, though lacking the last word in low-frequency extension and realistic weight of the instrument.

Scares me to remember the days when I actually believed such Bull-Schitt

 

[watchnerd]

I did not mean that the new wave was young in age. They mostly seem to be older people with degenerated hearing wanting to play the horribly recorded music of their youth.

Isn't this the same crowd that has been buying Koetsus for the last 30 years?

I think that's the reason prices keep going up -- it's the upgrade path for old geezers that already have last decade's TOTL stuff. So the new stuff has to cost more.

 

[watchnerd]

Apologies to Stereophile for lifting some of the above from their 'glowing' review of a five or six watt Luxman tube integrated amp, that sells for about the price of an AHB2.

I've actually thought of getting one of those (before the Stereophile review) after seeing one in Tokyo. It's a pretty sweet looking and well made piece.

But I have no use case for a 6 watt amp, unless I used it only for headphones.