Question regarding technical parameters of LPs.

[Robin L]

I collect mostly jazz and blues records originally issued 1950 - 1980. I enjoy playing them.

Some are historical rarities and smell funny and have ad inserts from their time, so they're likely little time machines. Others are modern reissues, homages, with great album art, liner notes, and glossy, expensive photographs.

Some come in different colors of vinyl. Some have swirling designs or even pictures.

But the enjoyment that comes from collecting isn't correlated with the fidelity, or lack thereof, of the medium.

I worked, for a year, at Ray Avery's Rare Records. I've collected 78's. I do understand collection and collectors.

What I don't understand are reviews of brand spanking new productions, where MF and his ilk claim the LP version is superior.

Why is the LP reissue of the Doors worst studio production the record of the month at Stereophile when there is so much music being made right now? Why did Fremer dump on me like a load of bricks [or something like that] when I suggested that the sound quality of a recently exhumed CCR recording at Woodstock wouldn't benefit from being spread across two LPs compared to one CD as the original recording isn't going to be better than any of the other recordings from Woodstock? And so on.

I'm sure the collector's itch is a given with LPs. But my concern is accessing music in its best sounding format. And as of 2019, the LP is not the best sounding format. So why this heavy push for an obsolete format? I guess it's mostly nostalgia. And I guess I'm not nostalgic.

 

[watchnerd]

It's not an issue of listening preferences. I've owned KOB in just about every format, 6-eye mono and stereo LPs, mid-1970's reissues with elevated treble, CD and single layer SACD. As the sound quality of this classic recording doesn't offer much of a playback challenge, it doesn't really represent any sort of real problem in playback on any medium, cassettes included.

My issue is the current elevation of LPs as state of the art. Which it isn't. It's about $50.000.00 tonearms. it's about the ludicrous fawing over an obviously obsolete format and the continued support, in Stereophile, Absolute Sound and Analog Planet, of overpriced gear and underperforming LPs. It's that publications theoretically devoted to the advancement of sound continue to push this cash-grab.

Oh...

I guess I don't have any cognitive dissonance because I don't think Stereophile, Absolute Sound, etc, are even theoretically devoted to the advancement of sound.

And it's not particular to LP, given the fawning over car-priced DACs, too, when measurements tell us budget DACs do just fine.

They're 50% in the entertainment business, writing audio porn that makes for vicarious thrills, 50% in the ad-selling business, so they need to cover what the high-end dealer / makers want to sell.

They're fashion magazines.

 

[Robin L]

Oh...

I guess I don't have any cognitive dissonance because I don't think Stereophile, Absolute Sound, etc, are even theoretically devoted to the advancement of sound.

And it's not particular to LP, given the fawning over car-priced DACs, too, when measurements tell us budget DACs do just fine.

They're 50% in the entertainment business, writing audio porn that makes for vicarious thrills, 50% in the ad-selling business, so they need to cover what the high-end dealer / makers want to sell.

They're fashion magazines.

I've been reading these publications for a very long time. They have all become much more craven as of late.

 

[watchnerd]

I've been reading these publications for a very long time. They have all become much more craven as of late.

More craven in what way?

As far as I can tell, since at least the late-80s, they've been in bed with gear-makers and placebo-prone.

Hell, remember the TICE clock fiasco?

And Harry Pearson was promoting his blessed list of 'Desert Island' LP for decades, and Fremer has always been a vinyl supremacist, so it's not like the LP love is new.

 

[Robin L]

More craven in what way?

As far as I can tell, since at least the late-80s, they've been in bed with gear-makers and placebo-prone.

Hell, remember the TICE clock fiasco?

And Harry Pearson was promoting his blessed list of 'Desert Island' LP for decades, and Fremer has always been a vinyl supremacist, so it's not like the LP love is new.

Good points. I was one of those folks who collected some of those Desert Isle Discs back then, when you could still find clean used copies of Shaded Dogs for reasonable prices at Ameoba or the Mint Platter in Berkeley. Of course, back in the eighties, most CD players sounded like crap to me. Things have changed. Now, most [not all] LPs sound like crap to me. And the SACDs of the "Living Stereo" series of recordings are clearly superior to the LP originals.

Still, even back then they had the Audio Cheapskate and other contributors focusing on "affordable audio".

Meanwhile the prices of gear increased exponentially. I start spinning out of control at these sites when someone extols the virtues of a turntable that costs more than a fully loaded BMW. Once I point out that the inherent flaws in LPs make such gear farcical, everyone chimes in about what an idiot I am to question such things.

I recently asked why they don't review mainstream, low cost gear like Onkyo's low cost integrated amps, they acted like it was beneath their dignity. This wasn't the case back in 1989.

 

[Ron Texas]

Considering all the mechanical things which could go wrong, it's amazing LP's sound as good as they do.

 

[watchnerd]

Good points. I was one of those folks who collected some of those Desert Isle Discs back then, when you could still find clean used copies of Shaded Dogs for reasonable prices at Ameoba or the Mint Platter in Berkeley. Of course, back in the eighties, most CD players sounded like crap to me. Things have changed. Now, most [not all] LPs sound like crap to me.

Still, even back then they had the Audio Cheapskate and other contributors focusing on "affordable audio".

Meanwhile the prices of gear increased exponentially. I start spinning out of control at these sites when someone extols the virtues of a turntable that costs more than a fully loaded BMW. Once I point out that the inherent flaws LPs make such gear farcical, everyone chimes in about what an idiot I am to question such things.

The flaws of LP are only a problem if you think flawless reproduction of sound is the actual goal, as opposed to playing LP with as much expensive over-engineering as possible to try to address LP's flaws and thereby create mechanical art.

I also collect analog, mechanical watches. Prices there can easily meet or exceed exotic turntables, but my most expensive mechanical watch is far less accurate that the free clock on my iPhone or even a cheap Casio G-shock.

High fidelity has as little to do with high end audio as time accuracy does with watch collecting.

 

[watchnerd]

Considering all the mechanical things which could do go wrong, it's amazing LP's sound as good as they do.

FIFY

Because there is always *something* -- an LP a little off center, a record a little thicker/thinner so VTA is slightly off, a minor change in VTF because the suspension broke in over time, a dry day so static is an issue, dust bunnies on the stylus, etc, etc.

 

[Ron Texas]

FIFY

Because there is always *something* -- an LP a little off center, a record a little thicker/thinner so VTA is slightly off, a minor change in VTF because the suspension broke in over time, a dry day so static is an issue, dust bunnies on the stylus, etc, etc.

Fixed it for you? The list of possibilities is long. You have just scratched the surface, double entendre intended.

 

[watchnerd]

I recently asked why they don't review mainstream, low cost gear like Onkyo's low cost integrated amps, they acted like it was beneath their dignity. This wasn't the case back in 1989.

Reviewing budget gear is for YouTubers like Z Reviews, who appeal to the younger demographic.

There is plenty of cheap gear being reviewed, you just need to look on social media, not in dinosaur magazines.

 

[watchnerd]

Fixed it for you? The list of possibilities is long. You have just scratched the surface, double entendre intended.

Bada bing!

But I did put etc etc

 

[Ron Texas]

Reviewing budget gear is for YouTubers like Z Reviews, who appeal to the younger demographic.

There is plenty of cheap gear being reviewed, you just need to look on social media, not in dinosaur magazines.

Zeos is eccentric. His reviews are fun. He loves LSR305's, LS50's and the MiniDSP 2x4 HD. I don't know how he gets around his apartment without falling on his face, the place is that cluttered.

 

[watchnerd]

Zeos is eccentric. His reviews are fun. He loves LSR305's, LS50's and the MiniDSP 2x4 HD. I don't know how he gets around his apartment without falling on his face, the place is that cluttered.

He's a great entertainer.

RMAF should book him to do a roast dinner / award ceremony of high end journalists.

 

[Robin L]

He's a great entertainer.

RMAF should book him to do a roast dinner / award ceremony of high end journalists.

I'll bite. Of course, this site turns out to have some fine critiques of low-end gear.

 

[Robin L]

The flaws of LP are only a problem if you think flawless reproduction of sound is the actual goal, as opposed to playing LP with as much expensive over-engineering as possible to try to address LP's flaws and thereby create mechanical art.

I also collect analog, mechanical watches. Prices there can easily meet or exceed exotic turntables, but my most expensive mechanical watch is far less accurate that the free clock on my iPhone or even a cheap Casio G-shock.

High fidelity has as little to do with high end audio as time accuracy does with watch collecting.

Guess I'm one of those Casio guys. I know everything will break, eventually.

 

[Ron Texas]

I don't wear a watch. Those are for folks who have to be somewhere on time.

 

[watchnerd]

Guess I'm one of those Casio guys. I know everything will break, eventually.

Breakage trauma is a good litmus test for "should you own LP":

Knowing that it can be damaged and will eventually wear out, what's the monetary "makes me cry" point for losing a stylus?

 

[Robin L]

Breakage trauma is a good litmus test for "should you own LP":

Knowing that it can be damaged and will eventually wear out, what's the monetary "makes me cry" point for losing a stylus?

Not to mention all those records destroyed when I didn't replace that stylus in time.

Anyone who's ever owned an AR XA knows what I'm talking' about.

Funny how many of those records wind up in the used bins.

 

[Soniclife]

Considering all the mechanical things which could go wrong, it's amazing LP's sound as good as they do.

Very true, and I think part of the appeal, you're so surprised some form of quality sound comes out it bound sides you a bit. When you watch a professional, and a very good kid do the same thing, the professional is better at it, but when the kids gets close it's more impressive.

 

[mansr]

More craven in what way?

Peter Craven.