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Question : Is this Room EQ good enough?

IAtaman

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Hello! We have a PC connected to the TV in the living room which we use for streaming and music listening. Using a combination of measurement mic, REW and EQ APO I was able to bring the room FR to the following level. What I don't know is whether this is good enough or not or should I continue working on improving it make it flatter with the right tilt. I mean some dips I was not able to fix, assuming I am dumping energy into a destructive interference hole. There is as much as 10db difference in levels it seems so maybe I should be considering sound absorbing materials and panels? Any insight and help would be greatly appreciated.

Room After EQ.PNG
 

ROOSKIE

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Hi, based on what I have read and adhere to currently.

Speakers that measure flat in an anechoic chamber (which is what you want) have a downward sloping trend in a real room. (which is also what you want.)
This slope varies in amount and character by design and good designs do not all have the same slope. (nor should they)
There is no one magic slope amount especially as distance and dispersion and room particulars play a huge role in what will sound right yet give different 'slopes'.

This slope is only a mild indicator of sound quality and sound not to be taken very seriously.
THIS IS NOT WHAT YOU HEAR and research has shown that to be true.
You hear a variety of traits at once and the original direct sound is the primary marker and early reflections add a huge influence upon which, taken in their proper context speakers do not sound exactly like any room curve.

Feel free to play around especially if mainly using it as a broad tone control and only being specific and detailed in the bass and upper bass regions. And----> Do not force the slope. You could ruin otherwise superb sound.

Room correction companies have a product to sell.
I typically do not use it above 300-500hrz or so. Above this I let the speakers and room be what it is. We typically hear right through familiar rooms.

Also the smoothing is a factor in how the graph looks.
I usually don't look at anything higher than 1/6octave for in room except in the bass region (20-200hrz), even looking at 1/3rd is a great idea from 200hrz-20,000hrz. That is more or less what you hear. It is okay to look at 1/20, 1/24,1/48 when using an anechoic chamber and/or Klipple NFS but in room in real life that is painfully pointless.(except in the bass)
 
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IAtaman

IAtaman

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Thank you Rooskie, appreciate the response. I am somewhat familiar with the theory and I did the room EQ for up to 500hz with REW and fixed some holes in higher frequencies with wide bandwith filters as you suggested. For tilt EQ APO has this nice this high shelf filters in which you can specify the slope in DB which I used to force the higher frequencies down a bit if you will. My question is, is this good enough or should I try to EQ down to 3db deviation? Can I achieve flattter response with EQ and with my speakers or maybe I need sound absorbing materials on the walls, or need to move the speakers? Maybe put differently how do I proceed from here?
 
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IAtaman

IAtaman

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On an unrelated note, wouldn't it be scary if the tech and the collection of information existed to figure out where you live based on the FR of your living room?
 

Tom C

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I think Rooksie has it spot on, but I would add that some speakers have a flat on-axis FR out of the box, but many, many don’t. For those I find it worthwhile to apply EQ for correction to flat based on spinorama. Our @Maiky76 and our @pierre (see his website spinorama.org) are excellent resources.
 

Daverz

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Hello! We have a PC connected to the TV in the living room which we use for streaming and music listening. Using a combination of measurement mic, REW and EQ APO I was able to bring the room FR to the following level. What I don't know is whether this is good enough or not or should I continue working on improving it make it flatter with the right tilt. I mean some dips I was not able to fix, assuming I am dumping energy into a destructive interference hole. There is as much as 10db difference in levels it seems so maybe I should be considering sound absorbing materials and panels? Any insight and help would be greatly appreciated.

View attachment 267903

What did the original FR look like?

That rise between 60 and 75 Hz or so looks like it might be audible.

Not sure about the rise around 180-200 Hz. That's a pretty easy resonance to hear, if it's a problem.
 
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IAtaman

IAtaman

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What are the speakers you are using?
I got a pair of Q Acoustics 3050i floor standing speakers and a Q Acoustics 2090Ci center speaker that I bought ages ago, funnily enough, because they were the recommendation of What Hifi for best midrange speakers. They travelled 3 countries with me so far.
 
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IAtaman

IAtaman

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I think Rooksie has it spot on, but I would add that some speakers have a flat on-axis FR out of the box, but many, many don’t. For those I find it worthwhile to apply EQ for correction to flat based on spinorama. Our @Maiky76 and our @pierre (see his website spinorama.org) are excellent resources.
spinorama.org is registered but no site is up. Can it be https://github.com/pierreaubert/spinorama ?
 
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IAtaman

IAtaman

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What did the original FR look like?

That rise between 60 and 75 Hz or so looks like it might be audible.

Not sure about the rise around 180-200 Hz. That's a pretty easy resonance to hear, if it's a problem.
I am afraid I did not save the original FR. Looking at the EQ though I see I had large peaks at 39, 70, 99 and 123hz and large dips at 48, 109 and 140hz.

They are audible, they are quite annoying actually but REW did not EQ them any further and every time I try to EQ them, I mess something else up, hence the consultation.
 

Daverz

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I am afraid I did not save the original FR. Looking at the EQ though I see I had large peaks at 39, 70, 99 and 123hz and large dips at 48, 109 and 140hz.

They are audible, they are quite annoying actually but REW did not EQ them any further and every time I try to EQ them, I mess something else up, hence the consultation.

I'd try about 3dB of attenuation around 65 Hz with a low Q (start with Q=1), adjusting the Q and center frequency by eye using the predicted frequency response in the REQ EQ interface. Also you might try shelving the frequencies below that to even them up.

I'd also try a PEQ around 200 Hz with a low Q. The Q may need to be below 1.
 

levimax

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Free advice and worth every penny. To me the bass area looks OK for what you have to work with. I would try to reduce the peaks @ 2.3 Khz and 4.3 Khz as those can be very audible and unpleasant. It is not "pure" like only EQ below 500 Hz but it may help a lot and it is free and reversible to try.
 

ROOSKIE

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Thank you Rooskie, appreciate the response. I am somewhat familiar with the theory and I did the room EQ for up to 500hz with REW and fixed some holes in higher frequencies with wide bandwith filters as you suggested. For tilt EQ APO has this nice this high shelf filters in which you can specify the slope in DB which I used to force the higher frequencies down a bit if you will. My question is, is this good enough or should I try to EQ down to 3db deviation? Can I achieve flattter response with EQ and with my speakers or maybe I need sound absorbing materials on the walls, or need to move the speakers? Maybe put differently how do I proceed from here?
Hi, to continue from my 1st reply.
As some have mentioned SPEAKER 'correction' is where it is at above 300-500hrz.

Just to point out, note that I have not said anything about not using PEQ above 300-500, rather I do not use 'room correction' above that frequency area. Above 300-500hrz I typically only correct the 'Speaker'. To do that you must have Klipple or Anechoic chamber measurements.(or at least high quality gated measurements)
('Correcting' the speaker can also include broad(low Q) tone control or wide band PEQ.)

Once the Anechoic/Klipple NFS data is available, then it takes some skill interpreting it all and making smart choices about 'correcting' the speaker's response. I do not use exactly the same stuff published by the very generous others that post here but it often is similar to what I use, this is because we are going to have different goals and more importantly different interpretations of what is 'best'.

You may not end up with an in-room curve that looks exactly like what you want.
But again since that is not what you are hearing then how would it help if it was perfect? A perfect looking room curve does not even mean the speaker sounds that good. ( I guarantee you I can make a perfect room curve that sounds horrible at least in terms of an example)There is some correlation between in room and actual sound but it really requires knowing the Anechoic/Klipple NFS data 1st.

The goal according to research that has actually been published, is not a perfect in room curve. Rather it is something else.

Assuming you have a typically furnished room, room treatments are always optional and can make things worse just as easily as better. It takes some knowledge and skill to do it well. I can't tell you what to do outright, it is a function of the speaker's design, the room acoustics+furnishings and personal listening tastes.

I think your basic in room response graph looks great FWIIW.
Bass generally should be elevated well above 'flat' (2-10db based on tastes) unless you like thin bass and or listen very loudly. Use the area around 150-350hrz to determine the baseline SPL. It will rise toward the bass and drop to some degree toward 20,000hrz.
If you playback at very high SPL and want a flatter sound the tuning will be different. This is because it takes 10db in the midrange for a change in volume to seem twice as loud, but in the bass it only takes 5-6db to seem twice as loud.

A +/-3db variation is for Anechoic/Klipple data. A real room might have much greater variation and still sound great and again see my 1st post at the bottom where I discussed what resolution I suggest to view the in-room steady state data in.

So, I am not sure what the sound is like from you view and if you are enjoying it or not.
Ultimately to answer you big ?, I would proceed by listening a lot.
Then in future if you make tweaks you can perceive they do sound better or not. Right now the charts are good enough. You likely need to get to know your systems and rooms' sound. We don't hear charts, as helpful as they are they simply get one close and then you do have to get into the subjective.

Free advice and worth every penny. To me the bass area looks OK for what you have to work with. I would try to reduce the peaks @ 2.3 Khz and 4.3 Khz as those can be very audible and unpleasant. It is not "pure" like only EQ below 500 Hz but it may help a lot and it is free and reversible to try.
One should not assume that.

Certainly play around but it is likely not that simple.

We do not hear room curves, at least according to Floyd Toole in his publishings and many others. (of course what does Dirac say? But they publish zero.)
The OP would want Anechoic/Klipple data , or at least some quality gated frequency response tests, to make best judgement calls above 300-500hrz.

Those peaks may or may not represent fixable issues and they may not actually sound the way they look based on the various components that made up that steady state measurement.

OP needs to know if they are more influenced by direct sound, early reflections, room characteristics or even measurement errors. The steady state also includes later arriving reflections but we typically are not influenced by them. The mic is though.
 
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IAtaman

IAtaman

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Appreciate everyone who took the time to respond.

They did not sound great to me. Based on my experience with IEMs recently, I came to learn that I do have a sensitivity to peaks around 3K yet have not heard anything piercing of sort yet so not sure I do hear the 2.3K and 4.3K peaks. I will test a bit more tomorrow morning. What I found annoying though was that inconsistency of the bass across tracks. It was exaggerated in some songs and was a bit weak in others which I suspect is due to +/- deviations in the FR. What I gathered from what you said @ROOSKIE was that I need to find the measurements of the speakers if I were to have a better idea about what is caused by the speakers and what is caused by the room. And it looks like you were absolutely correct, I found the measurements for the speakers here and they do have this valley around 2K that I saw in measurements and corrected manually, and they seem to be caused by the speakers.

1677528364116.png


Interestingly bass starts drooping off at 100hz while in room It looks like it is fine down to 30hz - is it not? I will also try the other filters suggested and report back if any improvements tomorrow. Thanks a lot again.
 

ROOSKIE

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Appreciate everyone who took the time to respond.

They did not sound great to me. Based on my experience with IEMs recently, I came to learn that I do have a sensitivity to peaks around 3K yet have not heard anything piercing of sort yet so not sure I do hear the 2.3K and 4.3K peaks. I will test a bit more tomorrow morning. What I found annoying though was that inconsistency of the bass across tracks. It was exaggerated in some songs and was a bit weak in others which I suspect is due to +/- deviations in the FR. What I gathered from what you said @ROOSKIE was that I need to find the measurements of the speakers if I were to have a better idea about what is caused by the speakers and what is caused by the room. And it looks like you were absolutely correct, I found the measurements for the speakers here and they do have this valley around 2K that I saw in measurements and corrected manually, and they seem to be caused by the speakers.

View attachment 267974

Interestingly bass starts drooping off at 100hz while in room It looks like it is fine down to 30hz - is it not? I will also try the other filters suggested and report back if any improvements tomorrow. Thanks a lot again.
The NRC Anechoic chamber is not accurate below 90-100hrz, though it is probably still usefully close.

Beyond that room gain is huge in the bass region. That is part of why the speaker will develop an in room downward slope. A big part of that downward trend is actually an upward trend in terms of bass being reinforced in the room. Typically reinforced more in small and medium rooms vs larger.

The reinforcement can be more than 10db in some cases.

Bass is troublesome as if you think about it as one actually has likley no idea what is correct as listener. Think about it further, headphones can not reproduce room filling bass at all so they are not an accurate source. I do not consider headphones when evaluating speakers. There is no chest thumping or room filling thunder. It may be that your speakers are fairly accurate but you were not familiar with what is actually what on the recording. It can take quite a bit of expereince to realize what may be reasonably 'accurate' and things like bass guitars and drums and electronic mixes can really be powerfull in 'real life'. 40 and 50hrz with power are quite shocking and 80hrz notes can really thump sometimes.

Play around.

The chart will not match in room ever. That is why a speakers 6-10db down point is very informative as it is often where the is the room is adding back close to 6-10db. (with obviously wild swings due to wave interferences and in-room modes)

The off axis charts are very important for guaging where to PEQ and where to PEQ.
What you hear is both chart below but not a linear way.
Chart 1 is dominate for tonality issues and depening on room a big chunk of horizontal early reflections and Chart 2 is a close secondary but very representative of the wider early reflections and sense of space and possible some tonality issues.

1677537861689.png
 
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