Question about DACs and room correction.

[marked sound]

I am not going to try and get you off the AP brand but that specific model in the range has a boat load of analog and digital inputs and stuff like pre-outs, hdmi arc etc

If your system is basically streamer -> internal DAC->internal amp->speakers then you are buying/paying for a lot of "stuff" you may never need/use.. so maybe there is a cheaper (but still quality) model in the AP range that has the needed watts?

View attachment 494374


In regard to your question, the minidsp flex comes in a digital in/digital out model so you would stick this between the streamer SPDIF out and the AP spdif in.

It comes with or without Dirac. Without Dirac you use the minidsp's own software to do the DSP but some people say Dirac is the way to go.

Maybe you could see if they would sell you without, try it then if needed get the Dirac license later.



View attachment 494376

Thanks again for the reply. My main reason for choosing this specific amp, is that I like the DAC that it has compared to others Advance Paris lineup. This Amp also advertises updated power supplies and circuitry. I also will be plugging in my TV to the eARC and taking advantage of the offered CEC, to allow my tv remote to control volume. I will definitely look more into, some of the things you suggested.

 

[Chrispy]

I have been there and done that with buying and re-buying equipment. I used to be the kind of guy that walked into a store and bought the first thing I got a deal on. Now I listen extensively to things, and read reviews. The system I am piecing together I have heard in multiple different environments, with multiple different media and I liked how it sounded.

You can knock me for not understanding what ASR is about, still doesn't change the fact that I see multiple posts of people wanting to keep changing their gear, and how they're looking into this and looking into that, and measuring this and measuring that. It's like bro... stay with something and be happy. Or not, but don't knock me for wanting to do so.

I don't know if you read what I said correctly. I said I WASN'T totally uninterested in measurements, which Is why I am looking into room correction.

Yes there are amps with room correction in my budget. If I so choose I could buy a Lyngdorf TDAI-3400. However, I seem to like what ever sound characteristics (some might say distortion) that this amp with it's tube preamp puts out.

Just consuming gear doesn't give you particular insight. Reviews don't do much generally either.

 

[JeremyFife]

The speakers I have put out ample bass, so i am not sure on getting subs just yet. However, I suspect my room might have some acoustic challenges, so I want to see if room correction will make a difference. My brother's Eversolo DAC has built in room correction and he said it made big improvement one he enabled it. My source for music will mostly be streamed from my Cambridge Audio CXN V2. The A12 Apex (amp) has a pretty good built in DAC, and if all goes well, that is what I will be using for handling music.

Cool,

Either put a miniDSP Flex Digital between your streamer and your Amp (using its internal DAC) or replace the Cambridge Audio with one of the WiiM or Eversolo streamers that include room correction.

You mentioned Amirm's setup earlier - he, and many others, uses "Roon" as a streaming service that also includes room correction. I believe that the CXN is rated for use with Roon and you might find that interesting. If you subscribed to Roon then you don't need hardware.

 

[marked sound]

Just consuming gear doesn't give you particular insight. Reviews don't do much generally either.

I hear you on some of the reviews, especially "professional" reviewers with youtube channels or magazines, as you do not know who they are being sponsored by and who's back pocket they are in. Also even a reviewer isn't being PAID by a manufacturer to give a good review, they often will give a good review anyway out of fear of being blacklisted by the manufacturer, from being sent future gear to review. Or fear of others companies being reluctant to send gear to a reviewer known for being critical. Kind of hard to have a successful audio review channel if no one is sending you gear to review (unless you are a multi millionaire that just can afford to buy tons of different gear). Plus if the reviewer has affiliate links, who is going to click on the link and buy the gear they just trashed. All that being said I will watch reviews,. and see if there is a consensus amongst different reviewers. I however will follow that up with listen for myself before just trusting it.

I will disagree with the statement that consuming gear doesn't give you insight. I can tell you that I know way more about audio, what sounds good, and different technologies, compared to when I bought my first budget sound system at a big box store, after owning various gear, and spending lots of time at various HiFi shops checking stuff out.

 

[marked sound]

Cool,

Either put a miniDSP Flex Digital between your streamer and your Amp (using its internal DAC) or replace the Cambridge Audio with one of the WiiM or Eversolo streamers that include room correction.

You mentioned Amirm's setup earlier - he, and many others, uses "Roon" as a streaming service that also includes room correction. I believe that the CXN is rated for use with Roon and you might find that interesting. If you subscribed to Roon then you don't need hardware.

Other than an old stereo system in my workout room from 2009, the only audio system I have is my main one in my living room. I also do use any other music streaming services on my stereo than Qobuz, and I control all my movie streaming services from my TV. Based on this would a Room subscription still be worth it, or would I be better off just getting hardware that can do room correction? For the record the CXN is something I am borrowing from my brother, with the option to buy it if I wish. I still can try your WiiM suggestion.

Since we are talking about Amirm's setup. I will tell you that he has the speakers that I thought about for a long time. The Revel Ultima Salon 2 is something I wanted for a while. I however don't like the fact that you can't get them new anymore and have to buy used. Since there are never any here for sale locally to check out and I would have to get them shipped, then there comes the questions of why is the person selling? Are they damaged? What if it's simply a scam where there is no speakers and they just keep my money? Also I then thought that buying something without hearing them is risky. What if they are just not for me? So I passed on those and bought the same speakers my brother has since I like them so much, and they pair beautifully with my brothers amp. The amp I always thought about is a Luxman L-509Z, which I would have likely bought if I got a pair of Revels, and if I could audition it with a return window.

 

[JeremyFife]

I don't know enough about Roon to help you, but members who use it seem to really like what it brings.

If you don't have a streamer yet then it's hard to see past the WiiM Ultra: bit perfect, good enough room correction and sub integration, hdmi for your tv and the control app is really good. Eversolo is also pretty nice.

You mind enjoy this thread;
'Is The Revel Ultima Salon2 STILL the State Of The Art?' https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...tima-salon2-still-the-state-of-the-art.67830/

 

[Francis Vaughan]

Perhaps a slightly different perspective.
There are parts of audio reproduction that are for all intents solved problems. Topping the list is digital conversion. ADCs and DACs are so good that it takes wilful stupidity to mess them up. Not all that far behind is amplification. There is no excuse for an amplifier with audible distortion. You get the power you pay for, but the advent of devices like the Hypex nCore basically made power amplification a solved problem. Not quite as solved as the digital part, as they are not bargain priced. More conventional (ie class A/B/AB) are really solved as well. cf Douglas Self's work.

Loudspeakers and the room they are in are the difficult problems. The room is by far and away the limiting factor. And digital room correction is not a panacea, despite what the pureveyours of correction systems try to tell you. Bass managment helps a lot, especially if done with dedicated subwoofers. But only at low frequencies. The loudspeaker in the room pretty much welds into place the result you will get. You really want to start with the room and work backwards. A loudspeaker that sounds great in one room is not guarenteed to work well in a different room. And no amount of digital correction will change this. The directivity charateristics of the loudspeaker are fixed, and really need to be taken into consideration relative to the room and listening position. Simple size of the room matters. Listening to loudspeakers in a demo room or someone else's house is never the full answer.

Moreover, a simple passive crossover louspeaker is really starting behind the curve. Not that there are not many good such loudspeakers. But if one both has the funds, and is starting out afresh, one really should be considering modern designs, and not be plodding along in the last millemium. The OP gives the impression that money isn't a huge limitation, but still wants a solution that is largey rooted in outdated tech. There are solutions that significantly raise the bar in terms of in-room perceived sound quality. But they are not based on some random boutique amplifier with glowing bottles inside. They are based on a solid understanding of the last 50 years of serious scientific research into what actually works. This research informs the professional side of music production, but there remains a curious resistance to much of this in many audiophiles. Sadly there is more money to be made with woo and snakeoil than there is with quality engineering that actualy works.

 

[marked sound]

Perhaps a slightly different perspective.
There are parts of audio reproduction that are for all intents solved problems. Topping the list is digital conversion. ADCs and DACs are so good that it takes wilful stupidity to mess them up. Not all that far behind is amplification. There is no excuse for an amplifier with audible distortion. You get the power you pay for, but the advent of devices like the Hypex nCore basically made power amplification a solved problem. Not quite as solved as the digital part, as they are not bargain priced. More conventional (ie class A/B/AB) are really solved as well. cf Douglas Self's work.

Loudspeakers and the room they are in are the difficult problems. The room is by far and away the limiting factor. And digital room correction is not a panacea, despite what the pureveyours of correction systems try to tell you. Bass managment helps a lot, especially if done with dedicated subwoofers. But only at low frequencies. The loudspeaker in the room pretty much welds into place the result you will get. You really want to start with the room and work backwards. A loudspeaker that sounds great in one room is not guarenteed to work well in a different room. And no amount of digital correction will change this. The directivity charateristics of the loudspeaker are fixed, and really need to be taken into consideration relative to the room and listening position. Simple size of the room matters. Listening to loudspeakers in a demo room or someone else's house is never the full answer.

Moreover, a simple passive crossover louspeaker is really starting behind the curve. Not that there are not many good such loudspeakers. But if one both has the funds, and is starting out afresh, one really should be considering modern designs, and not be plodding along in the last millemium. The OP gives the impression that money isn't a huge limitation, but still wants a solution that is largey rooted in outdated tech. There are solutions that significantly raise the bar in terms of in-room perceived sound quality. But they are not based on some random boutique amplifier with glowing bottles inside. They are based on a solid understanding of the last 50 years of serious scientific research into what actually works. This research informs the professional side of music production, but there remains a curious resistance to much of this in many audiophiles. Sadly there is more money to be made with woo and snakeoil than there is with quality engineering that actualy works.

The speakers I bought have lots of advanced tech to help minimize distortion in a room. They pair point-to-point bracing to deal with low-frequency panel vibrations with Helmholtz Pressure Equalizers to balance out pressure irregularities. Another component that allows for less vibration and coloration is the cabinet construction. Three separate layers are filled with a non-setting gel, which damps the the cabinet walls and converts higher frequency vibrations into heat.

Also, great care has been taken in both the design of the crossover and the selection of high grade components, to introduce virtually zero noise and distortion. The 4th-order Linkwitz-Riley topology which gives an excellent response both on and off-axis.

Furthermore these speakers have mechanically decoupled mounting, which effectively isolates the HF driver and speaker cabinet from reciprocal vibrations that would otherwise be transmitted between them.

Also, the cast aluminium base is designed without large flat areas or additional adornments to discourage unwanted acoustic reflections. The resulting design is underpinned with a choice of carefully engineered feet to immovably couple the loudspeaker to any surface.

The speakers I bought have been well received by many, including those who view measurements as the holy grail in determining a speakers proficiency.

The amp I am purchasing is a series up from the one that my brother has, and his amp sounds phenomenal with these speakers.

 

[Chrispy]

I hear you on some of the reviews, especially "professional" reviewers with youtube channels or magazines, as you do not know who they are being sponsored by and who's back pocket they are in. Also even a reviewer isn't being PAID by a manufacturer to give a good review, they often will give a good review anyway out of fear of being blacklisted by the manufacturer, from being sent future gear to review. Or fear of others companies being reluctant to send gear to a reviewer known for being critical. Kind of hard to have a successful audio review channel if no one is sending you gear to review (unless you are a multi millionaire that just can afford to buy tons of different gear). Plus if the reviewer has affiliate links, who is going to click on the link and buy the gear they just trashed. All that being said I will watch reviews,. and see if there is a consensus amongst different reviewers. I however will follow that up with listen for myself before just trusting it.

I will disagree with the statement that consuming gear doesn't give you insight. I can tell you that I know way more about audio, what sounds good, and different technologies, compared to when I bought my first budget sound system at a big box store, after owning various gear, and spending lots of time at various HiFi shops checking stuff out.

Might give you insight to your preferences, but not particularly about reference. You probably have a lot left to learn and it isn't going to be shopping.

 

[Chrispy]

I hear you on some of the reviews, especially "professional" reviewers with youtube channels or magazines, as you do not know who they are being sponsored by and who's back pocket they are in. Also even a reviewer isn't being PAID by a manufacturer to give a good review, they often will give a good review anyway out of fear of being blacklisted by the manufacturer, from being sent future gear to review. Or fear of others companies being reluctant to send gear to a reviewer known for being critical. Kind of hard to have a successful audio review channel if no one is sending you gear to review (unless you are a multi millionaire that just can afford to buy tons of different gear). Plus if the reviewer has affiliate links, who is going to click on the link and buy the gear they just trashed. All that being said I will watch reviews,. and see if there is a consensus amongst different reviewers. I however will follow that up with listen for myself before just trusting it.

I will disagree with the statement that consuming gear doesn't give you insight. I can tell you that I know way more about audio, what sounds good, and different technologies, compared to when I bought my first budget sound system at a big box store, after owning various gear, and spending lots of time at various HiFi shops checking stuff out.

OTOH youtube channels or magazines don't have a lot of professionalism going for them. Without measurements most are a guess.

 

[voodooless]

The speakers I bought have lots of advanced tech to help minimize distortion in a room. They pair point-to-point bracing to deal with low-frequency panel vibrations with Helmholtz Pressure Equalizers to balance out pressure irregularities. Another component that allows for less vibration and coloration is the cabinet construction. Three separate layers are filled with a non-setting gel, which damps the the cabinet walls and converts higher frequency vibrations into heat.

Also, great care has been taken in both the design of the crossover and the selection of high grade components, to introduce virtually zero noise and distortion. The 4th-order Linkwitz-Riley topology which gives an excellent response both on and off-axis.

Furthermore these speakers have mechanically decoupled mounting, which effectively isolates the HF driver and speaker cabinet from reciprocal vibrations that would otherwise be transmitted between them.

Also, the cast aluminium base is designed without large flat areas or additional adornments to discourage unwanted acoustic reflections. The resulting design is underpinned with a choice of carefully engineered feet to immovably couple the loudspeaker to any surface.

The speakers I bought have been well received by many, including those who view measurements as the holy grail in determining a speakers proficiency.

The amp I am purchasing is a series up from the one that my brother has, and his amp sounds phenomenal with these speakers.

Why don’t you just tell us what speakers you have? Afraid we would also disapprove?

 

[Beave]

Why don’t you just tell us what speakers you have? Afraid we would also disapprove?

He told us - in another thread - that he has Q Acoustics Concept 500 speakers, reviewed and measured by Stereophile's John Atkinson here: https://www.stereophile.com/content/q-acoustics-concept-500-loudspeaker-measurements

 

[voodooless]

He told us - in another thread - that he has Q Acoustics Concept 500 speakers, reviewed and measured by Stereophile's John Atkinson here: https://www.stereophile.com/content/q-acoustics-concept-500-loudspeaker-measurements

Ah,great! Missed that.

Those don’t look half bad. Fairly linear, except for the HF, and they seem decent directivity wise. Look nice as well. I’d say: congrats on those. As far as passives go, these are plenty decent.

Still, the advantages of an active system are plenty, especially if you consider the joint budget, you can get some serious active kit.

 

[marked sound]

Ah,great! Missed that.

Those don’t look half bad. Fairly linear, except for the HF, and they seem decent directivity wise. Look nice as well. I’d say: congrats on those. As far as passives go, these are plenty decent.

Still, the advantages of an active system are plenty, especially if you consider the joint budget, you can get some serious active kit.

To be honest the speakers having decent measurements was just happenstance I found out later, after deciding I liked the way they sounded. However, it certainly didn't hurt my purchasing decision.

Coincidentally, another person had said they found a sight that measured the Advance Paris amp I was initially looking at, and were fairly impressed with the results. Here is the link.

One moment, please...

The amp I ordered is a series up from this one, with better power supplies and components and better DAC. I am missing room correction though, which I plan to solve externally.

 

[voodooless]

To be honest the speakers having decent measurements was just happenstance I found out later, after deciding I liked the way they sounded. However, it certainly didn't hurt my purchasing decision.

Coincidentally, another person had said they found a sight that measured the Advance Paris amp I was initially looking at, and were fairly impressed with the results. Here is the link.

One moment, please...

The amp I ordered is a series up from this one, with better power supplies and components and better DAC. I am missing room correction though, which I plan to solve externally.

Those aren’t very impressive numbers.. the DAC doesn’t even make it past 16bit resolution, and the amp isn’t low distortion either, but probably enough.

And Alpha-Audio… they are full of audiophile and pseudoscientific nonsense, so be wary!

 

[marked sound]

Those aren’t very impressive numbers.. the DAC doesn’t even make it past 16bit resolution, and the amp isn’t low distortion either, but probably enough.

And Alpha-Audio… they are full of audiophile and pseudoscientific nonsense, so be wary!

The A12 Apex uses a much better DAC.

 

[voodooless]

The A12 Apex uses a much better DAC.

Better how? They’ll probably all be transparent even with the crappy implementation where it measures more than 10 dB off spec.

If you want to stay with AP, why not go with the Nova series? It has room correction.

 

[marked sound]

Better how? They’ll probably all be transparent even with the crappy implementation where it measures more than 10 dB off spec.

It seems as though you are suggesting it is not the DAC itself in the A12 Classic that is the problem, but how it is implemented. I must admit that I have not seen measurements of other systems with that particular DAC to know if it received really positive or negative results, for me to verify this one way or the other. All I know is that Advance Paris was criticized by some for their DAC selection for the Classic. The Apex uses an ESS 9039 released in 2023 vs the DAC they were using from 2006 in the Classic. Will this, and with all the upgrades to the other internal components result in better DAC measurements? I don't know for sure. Gunnnn to my head though? I'd say yeah. I liked the sound of his amp with my brother's Eversolo DMP-A8, if all else fails I can get one of those if I am not happy.

Now to answer your other question as to why I didn't go for the Nova. The Apex appears to be the Nova (updated internals) minus room correction, but for some reason the Nova uses an older mid range ESS DAC. If I they are going to charge $8000 USD for the Nova, they could have at least used the same 9039 PRO that is in the Eversolo DMP-A10 which costs $4000 less. The Apex is $3000 less than the Nova. If I end up liking the sound with the DAC it's got, I will add my own room correction and call it a day. If not, I will use $3000 towards the purchase either an Eversolo A8 or A10, both of which have room correction, instead of spending all that money on a Nova I may or may not be totally satisfied with.

Also, Another reason I bought the Apex is because my brother was already trading in his amp for the Apex, and he texted me that he worked out a smoking good deal with the HiFi shop owner for TWO Apex amplifiers if I wanted one. I saved around $1600.