Question about DACs and room correction.

[JeremyFife]

Are there ONLY objective standards at play? If we are talking accuracy, then we can stick to only objective standards. But preferences? Likes? Dislikes?

Let's try a thought experiment. Suppose I design a highly accurate speaker that I can sell for $500 a pair, or $1000 for floor standing version. It is equal to or more accurate than any other speaker you can list, down to 40hz for the stand mounts and 20hz for the floor standers.

The downside is this: it only works if made in the shape of a unicorn rearing up on hind legs, and the color MUST be fluorescent pink and green horizontal stripes. Why? Proprietary secret reasons. But if you paint them, it degrades the sound, objectively, by the measurements.

You buying?

Hell YES

 

[bungle]

Why the difference in the post room correction paths ? i.e. why does the turntable path end "dac -> adc -> dac -> amp -> sound"
instead of simply "dac -> amp -> sound" like your digital and analog paths?

Because:
turntable (analog out) -> ADC/RIAA (minidsp adept) -> DAC (minidsp htx) -> speaker (Genelec S360 that does ADC, DAC and AMP, with digital I expect it to not do ADC of course, but perhaps something else such as bitrate conversion (aka digital to digital conversion that can be lossy) etc). I do have choice of using GLM too for room correction (instead of minidsp autoeq/dirac/manual). But I do need something to connect all my equipment, and adept+htx kinda solves this for me. That is, I have multiple analog in/out (both balanced and unbalanced), I have USB in, USB out, SPDIF and toslink too, and HDMI eARC. AV Pre/Pro is of course easiest solution. Or very expensive digital av pre/pro.

If there was an digital out with minidsp htx, e.g. AES/SPDIF, then I would be able to skip the DAC/ADC. Alternatively I could skip the whole minidsp htx, but then I would need all digital switch/volume/processor. Just pointing out, that it doesn't matter, if you switch back and forth with good equipment like this.

 

[gwing]

Are there ONLY objective standards at play? If we are talking accuracy, then we can stick to only objective standards. But preferences? Likes? Dislikes?

Let's try a thought experiment. Suppose I design a highly accurate speaker that I can sell for $500 a pair, or $1000 for floor standing version. It is equal to or more accurate than any other speaker you can list, down to 40hz for the stand mounts and 20hz for the floor standers.

The downside is this: it only works if made in the shape of a unicorn rearing up on hind legs, and the color MUST be fluorescent pink and green horizontal stripes. Why? Proprietary secret reasons. But if you paint them, it degrades the sound, objectively, by the measurements.

You buying?

Yes, probably, if I'm feeling brave enough, maybe.

 

[Pareto Pragmatic]

Hell YES

Yes, probably, if I'm feeling brave enough, maybe.

Did I mention the unicorns are made out of compressed horse poop? Best damping material in existence. Sterilized of course. We don't expect the cabinets to break down for 20 years, but after that, maybe.





I really should have thought through the audience before posting. Because, TBH, while I would NEVER have 5 foot tall neon unicorns in my living room, I would likely find a place for the $500 stand mounts.

 

[JeremyFife]

Did I mention the unicorns are made out of compressed horse poop? Best damping material in existence. Sterilized of course. We don't expect the cabinets to break down for 20 years, but after that, maybe.





I really should have thought through the audience before posting. Because, TBH, while I would NEVER have 5 foot tall neon unicorns in my living room, I would likely find a place for the $500 stand mounts.

Lol, my girls would fight you for these

 

[marked sound]

That is the problem. You're not just trusting your ears! If you did that, you'd be conducting a double blind controlled listening test. However, it's clear that you're not interested in that.


That's the great thing about ASR: All this work has already been done by several lifetimes of research in a multitude of scientific fields. The end result of being lazy is just that you'll keep chasing the next audiophile fad.


Again, you clearly demonstrate that you don't understand what ASR is all about.


That is like an oxymoron... You need measurements to get any value out of room correction.


The most sensible thing is to buy a product that actually suits your needs instead of building some sub-optimal Frankenstein monster. There are plenty of decent amps with room correction within your budget.

I thought about the blind listening test idea, however when I listened to various different amps that I was SURE were going to sound better because of my own bias and brand reputation etc, and I ended up liked the amp that I didn't think could compete, I didn't feel the need.

I am not going to try and get you off the AP brand but that specific model in the range has a boat load of analog and digital inputs and stuff like pre-outs, hdmi arc etc

If your system is basically streamer -> internal DAC->internal amp->speakers then you are buying/paying for a lot of "stuff" you may never need/use.. so maybe there is a cheaper (but still quality) model in the AP range that has the needed watts?

View attachment 494374


In regard to your question, the minidsp flex comes in a digital in/digital out model so you would stick this between the streamer SPDIF out and the AP spdif in.

It comes with or without Dirac. Without Dirac you use the minidsp's own software to do the DSP but some people say Dirac is the way to go.

Maybe you could see if they would sell you without, try it then if needed get the Dirac license later.



View attachment 494376

I know their is a lot to this Amp that I might not use, but intend to use the HDMI eARC to connect my TV, and I intend to use at least one digital input for my DAC / streamer and potentially one or both sub outs depending how everything sounds. I will definitely investigate the mini dsp with DIRAC though. Thanks for the feedback.

 

[voodooless]

I thought about the blind listening test idea, however when I listened to various different amps that I was SURE were going to sound better because of my own bias and brand reputation etc, and I ended up liked the amp that I didn't think could compete, I didn't feel the need.

That’s often how it goes. Don’t pretended to know your biases. Generally you are only aware of a few. The rest are hidden. That’s why it’s impossible to tune them out.

 

[marked sound]

That is the problem. You're not just trusting your ears! If you did that, you'd be conducting a double blind controlled listening test. However, it's clear that you're not interested in that.


That's the great thing about ASR: All this work has already been done by several lifetimes of research in a multitude of scientific fields. The end result of being lazy is just that you'll keep chasing the next audiophile fad.


Again, you clearly demonstrate that you don't understand what ASR is all about.


That is like an oxymoron... You need measurements to get any value out of room correction.


The most sensible thing is to buy a product that actually suits your needs instead of building some sub-optimal Frankenstein monster. There are plenty of decent amps with room correction within your budget.

I have been there and done that with buying and re-buying equipment. I used to be the kind of guy that walked into a store and bought the first thing I got a deal on. Now I listen extensively to things, and read reviews. The system I am piecing together I have heard in multiple different environments, with multiple different media and I liked how it sounded.

You can knock me for not understanding what ASR is about, still doesn't change the fact that I see multiple posts of people wanting to keep changing their gear, and how they're looking into this and looking into that, and measuring this and measuring that. It's like bro... stay with something and be happy. Or not, but don't knock me for wanting to do so.

I don't know if you read what I said correctly. I said I WASN'T totally uninterested in measurements, which Is why I am looking into room correction.

Yes there are amps with room correction in my budget. If I so choose I could buy a Lyngdorf TDAI-3400. However, I seem to like what ever sound characteristics (some might say distortion) that this amp with it's tube preamp puts out.

 

[marked sound]

The Advance Paris amplifier looks great and seems to offer plenty of power.
I’m not sure which streamer you’re using, but if you switch to an AVR or AVP such as the AVR-X3800H, you won’t need a separate streamer anymore. In that case, you can simply sell it.
Sometimes you need to let go of something in order to gain something new. Even without an expensive streamer, proper room EQ will most likely make the sound feel improved.
View attachment 494417
View attachment 494418

The picture you are showing is of the A12 Classic, I am purchasing an A12 Apex, which is from a range higher. For what it is worth I already have a decent DAC with a built in streamer. I plan on hooking it to the amp digitally to use the DAC that is in Apex.

 

[marked sound]

Of course. That doesn't mean it's rational.

Possibly, but I am not here to judge. Whatever makes one happy.

 

[marked sound]

OK, you're going with the Advance Paris amp (which looks awesome btw) and you want to use its internal DAC - your system, your choice - that's all good.
Room Correction can be added upstream of the DAC, no problem.

I may have missed this, but what are your music sources? You will, in an ideal world, want to apply room correction to all of them.
There are plenty of options from the tiny WiiM Mini, if all you need is streaming, to Eversolo models.

What do you need to apply RC to?
Do you plan to add a subwoofer (or a pair, or more?)? This changes your requirement

I am using Qobuz and My TV streaming services.

 

[voodooless]

I don't know if you read what I said correctly. I said I WASN'T totally uninterested in measurements, which Is why I am looking into room correction.

Yeah, sorry about that, I misread.

Yes there are amps with room correction in my budget. If I so choose I could buy a Lyngdorf TDAI-3400. However, I seem to like what ever sound characteristics (some might say distortion) that this amp with it's tube preamp puts out.

It’s a really poor amp:

Review and Measurements of Lyngdorf TDAI-3400 Amp & EQ (Part 1)

This is part one of the review and detailed measurements of Lyngdorf TDAI-3400 Integrated amplifier, streamer, DAC and Room equalizer. It is on kind loan from a member and costs USD $6,499 (£4,995.00). In this review I will be focusing on the overall features of the unit, and performance of...

www.audiosciencereview.com

There are no tubes in that thing…

There are plenty of other options, though.

 

[Pareto Pragmatic]

Yes there are amps with room correction in my budget.

I think long term it makes more sense to have room correction separate. It's more flexible and easier if you change amps up later on. And if you have a second system (now or in the future), you can just pop the same device into the chain and know how it works.

 

[marked sound]

Yeah, sorry about that, I misread.


It’s a really poor amp:

Review and Measurements of Lyngdorf TDAI-3400 Amp & EQ (Part 1)

This is part one of the review and detailed measurements of Lyngdorf TDAI-3400 Integrated amplifier, streamer, DAC and Room equalizer. It is on kind loan from a member and costs USD $6,499 (£4,995.00). In this review I will be focusing on the overall features of the unit, and performance of...

www.audiosciencereview.com

There are no tubes in that thing…

There are plenty of other options, though.

The Advance Paris has the tubes. That is what I am talking about.

 

[marked sound]

I think long term it makes more sense to have room correction separate. It's more flexible and easier if you change amps up later on. And if you have a second system (now or in the future), you can just pop the same device into the chain and know how it works.

Fair point. However. I am not buying the amp based on whether it does or doesn't have room correction. I am buying because I like the sound. If it had room correction even better. I also don't ever plan on changing amps, unless some new mind blowing technology comes out.

 

[voodooless]

Fair point. However. I am not buying the amp based on whether it does or doesn't have room correction. I am buying because I like the sound. If it had room correction even better. I also don't ever plan on changing amps, unless some new mind blowing technology comes out.

So you're ignoring the single most important feature that dictates sound quality? Where is the logic here?

Just don't get an integrated amp then, so you can swap out the rest and leave more options to choose from when enabling room correction

 

[Mort]

There is no logic. They came to a vegetarian site to tell us they are a meat eater and want approval.

 

[marked sound]

There is no logic. They came to a vegetarian site to tell us they are a meat eater and want approval.

I wasn't looking for any approval. I simply wanted advice on how to hook up external room correction. In my original post I did not mention what my gear was going to be, for the simple reason that I know how self-righteous some people can be on here. Someone asked me what my amp I was going to be, so I said to be polite. In hindsight I can see that was a mistake.

If I am not mistaken according to his profile the founder of this forum, (who probably has forgotten more about audio than you even know) uses Mark Levinson amps and DAC. Neither of which advertise room correction. However, his profile does mention...

• Windows 10, silent, custom PC music server
• Roon Music Management

Which possibly indicates some sort of external room correction if he has it. Why then are you not calling out the founder of this forum for his conarnivorous blasphemy?

 

[marked sound]

So you're ignoring the single most important feature that dictates sound quality? Where is the logic here?

Just don't get an integrated amp then, so you can swap out the rest and leave more options to choose from when enabling room correction

I know room correction can be added later. I love the sound of the amp I am getting, however I am not that naive to not realize that there could be some acoustic challenges in my listening environment. I want to see if external if an external room correction device could further improve the sound.

 

[marked sound]

OK, you're going with the Advance Paris amp (which looks awesome btw) and you want to use its internal DAC - your system, your choice - that's all good.
Room Correction can be added upstream of the DAC, no problem.

I may have missed this, but what are your music sources? You will, in an ideal world, want to apply room correction to all of them.
There are plenty of options from the tiny WiiM Mini, if all you need is streaming, to Eversolo models.

What do you need to apply RC to?
Do you plan to add a subwoofer (or a pair, or more?)? This changes your requirement

The speakers I have put out ample bass, so i am not sure on getting subs just yet. However, I suspect my room might have some acoustic challenges, so I want to see if room correction will make a difference. My brother's Eversolo DAC has built in room correction and he said it made big improvement one he enabled it. My source for music will mostly be streamed from my Cambridge Audio CXN V2. The A12 Apex (amp) has a pretty good built in DAC, and if all goes well, that is what I will be using for handling music.