Quality speakers for classical music with high output/volume

[sejarzo]

Well as rest of the measurements where actually done on 86 dB that's an easy assumption to make (as I also did) but I remembered back from the day's I complained how they aren't easy to drive (phase shift) that it whose answered by host and it whosent easy to find.

I'm pretty sure I saw other speakers that were measured at 10Vrms input without an SPL shown.

 

[Vladimir Filevski]

Those DBR62 THD plots are after all at 96 dB. If you read back regarding my proposition it's all includeded (UMIK-1, MiniDSP Flex, Hypex NCx500 amplifier with buffer, 2x SVS SB 1000 sub's) and he still keeps change from 3K $ budget to get cables and for peanuts.

I stand corrected.
But it doesn't change the fact - Neumann KH 150 has lower distortion than Elac DBR-62, at SPL=96dB

Just that you don't bother me again from where did I get preference numbers:...

I don't care where you get those preference numbers.
I already said - preference number is not enough (because it doesn't include distortion, waterfall diagram, etc.).

If you think 1KW of power difference doesn't make difference go visit a doctor.

That is not polite, to say the least.
Yes, I do think 1kW power doesn't make difference.
Where you get that 1kW number? Hypex NCx500 max. power is about 300W/8ohm, per channel. Elac DBR-62 is an 8-ohm speaker.
Ignoring the fact that 300W may easily fry the Elac DBR-62, that is only 155W difference from the Neuman KH 150 integral 145W amp. That translates to only 3 dB SPL difference, if sensitivities of both speakers are the same, if power compressions are the same, and only if Elac DBR-62 will survive 300W input power (it will not).
Also, you can not add the 300W power of the subwoofer to the (150W or 300W) amplifier intended for DBR-62 here - it doesn't add up like that, nor it will add plus 6 dB as you are wishing for:

That's 900W RMS more resulting in at least 6 dB more SPL

 

[sejarzo]

So I'm confused.

I'm listening to music right now on an £800 pair of DIRAC EQd Dali Oberon 5's

To me they sound pretty wonderful. Now it is not classical music. I seem to be reading here that if I listen to classical, these speakers are going to sound like shit.

I don't buy it.

Neither do most of us.

 

[dasdoing]

I doubt OP is still reading lol

 

[ZolaIII]

@Vladimir Filevski (2x155)+(2x300)=910
You forgot Elac's won't do a bottom end (100 Hz crossover) which give them at least 2~3 dB more. They survived turture on 1 KW monoblock playing on ear bleeding levels. Not that I think anyone will drive them that much and I initially did include disclaimer purposely as there are crazy people after all.
Two SVS 1000 SB will be able to go 106 dB @ 31.5 Hz and 109 @ 40 Hz. You can find desired measurements you referred to as missing simply by reading their review's hire at ASR but I am sure that you already know that. By the way waterfall plots in the sub 100 Hz range will look much better with closed enclosure subwoofer's then any ported speakers. Actually I remember Yamaha NS10M waterfall plots. They were empty and that's much how enclosure plays a part.
I find your comment's not polite, to say the least especially as I am certain that you know better.

 

[Pretorious]

@excelsius the best thing you can do at this point is buy the speakers you want, place them where you want and listen to them how you want. If you’re happy with how the music sounds then enjoy and be happy.

You’re at the price range where the returns are diminished quickly. You can spend a fortune in time and money attempting to get minuscule gains in audio fidelity that you’ll likely not even be able to discern. There comes a point where the effort to acquire that last bit of performance is going to outstrip the enjoyment of the music itself.

If I understand where you’re coming from, you don’t want to be chasing after ephemera or trying all sorts of gear that would be a side grade at best. As a previous user noted, the sheer upgrade at this price range from computer speakers will be enormous to you. In one fell swoop you would’ve gotten most of the way there towards accurate and enjoyable audio quality. That’s when you ask yourself if the last portion of all the small details is worth pursuing or if you’re happy with your setup.

Knowledge is good, but you can only do so much with what you have. Learning how sound behaves can help you understand what’s going on in your room, and makes it easier to combat the pseudoscientific snake oil that is rife in the industry. Armed with that knowledge you can find excellent audio reproduction capabilities in affordable products. The final aim is musical, emotional enjoyment. Don‘t go too crazy with all the details and information provided in this thread so that it gets in the way of the music.

 

[theREALdotnet]

For classical, I suggest a full range speaker which can reproduce everything from 20Hz - 20kHz. You do NOT want a speaker which will compress at high volumes because it will make fortissimos sound congested and you will lose clarity.

I agree with the need for low dynamic compression, but I disagree with the recommendation for a full-range speaker. For best in-room response it is virtually a must that the mid/treble and the bass drivers can be placed independently from each other. The best place for the mid/trebles is almost guaranteed to be the wrong spot for the bass drivers. I therefore think it is much better to choose stand mount speakers (“bookshelf” is a bad description) with low dynamic compression and even frequency response, and at least two subwoofers to take care of the lower bass. The subwoofers would be placed where the room acoustic demands, which is usually not where the stand mounts are, such as diagonal corners of the room.

 

[mj30250]

Given the site @mj30250 pointed out (which seems like a legit site), I could certainly just order the KH-150 and be done. I'll wait a bit more to get some more feedback here before pulling the trigger.

Would be really curious to hear people's experiences here who have heard KH-150 and know personally how it compares to other speakers, with pros/cons and the off-axis performance given that I don't plan to be listening in specific sweet spots.

Also, the KH-150 also has the MA-1 monitor alignment device. Is this a worthy addition?

Would appreciate any adjustable height stand recommendations as well for the KH-150 or similar speakers.

I use KH 150s on my desk at a 3ft listening distance, give or take a few inches. From this distance, they sound extraordinary: they are perfectly balanced, transparent, and detailed, and throw a suitably large soundstage while maintaining clean, sharp imaging. I don't find that they lack for much of anything outside of the lowest bass octaves, but given the music I typically listen to, their bass output is more than capable, as can be seen from their measurements. I did use and recommend MA-1, particularly if they are placed near a wall and / or in a highly-reflective space. I will caution you that the MA-1 mic comes at an additional cost, and the software is a bit of a mess and susceptible to bugs and related frustrations. However, the end results for me were excellent, and you can tweak the resulting target curve to your room and tastes. I can confidently say that the 150s are the best 2-way speakers I've ever heard.

Now, if you were to significantly lengthen the listening distance per your use case, I don't know that they'd be ideal. Their dispersion runs a touch on the narrow side, and while they might actually pump out enough raw, clean volume depending on room gain and your actual volume preferences, you will likely miss a subwoofer at far distances and I don't believe they'd cast a large enough soundstage.

At your budget, a used pair of Philharmonic BMR monitors + amp would be worth a look. Ascend Acoustics Sierra LXs + amp would also be within budget and put out very respectable bass with good power handling for their size.

 

[excelsius]

I doubt OP is still reading lol

The OP is still very much reading and following this conversation, as he mentioned earlier. Especially the argument for the output/power differences between KH-150 and DBR62.

 

[ZolaIII]

The OP is still very much reading and following this conversation, as he mentioned earlier. Especially the argument for the output/power differences between KH-150 and DBR62.

As this whosent actually been mentioned you should be aware how usual white noise reference calibration point is 83 dB and by using equal loudness normalisation you can hear everything there is to be heard listening on lower levels than that. Had to mention that as this "loudness" war is getting silly as they all are.

 

[Vladimir Filevski]

@Vladimir Filevski (2x155)+(2x300)=910

???
Where is the 910W difference?
A I said earlier, you can not add amplifier wattage like that - it is meaningless!
Your first proposal was 150W amplifier (per channel) for Elac DBR-62 - that is about the same as the Neumann KH 150 internal 145W amplifier for the midbass. Regardless of the subwoofer wattage, DBR-62 will receive the same 150W, so it can not be louder above 100Hz.
Your second proposal was 300W Hypex amplifier - that is only 150W difference and only 3 dB higher SPL, if sensitivities of both speakers are the same, if power compressions are the same, and only if Elac DBR-62 will survive 300W input power (it will not - given the unexperienced user, as OP is).

You forgot Elac's won't do a bottom end (100 Hz crossover) which give them at least 2~3 dB more.

I didn't forget the crossover at 100 Hz, and also I didn't forget that the 150W (or 300W) amplifier for the Elac is the same (with or without subs), so there can't be "2-3 dB more" above 100Hz in this universe with these physic laws.

They survived turture on 1 KW monoblock playing on ear bleeding levels.

You forgot OP is not an experienced user - with 1kW monoblock he will surely fry the speakers in a heartbeat.

Two SVS 1000 SB will be able to go 106 dB @ 31.5 Hz and 109 @ 40 Hz.

So? Does the OP need them? Does he need measurement microphone, MIniDSP, two subwoofers, etc? As far as I know, he asks for a pair of good bookshelf loudspeakers, nothing else. No two additional big subwoofers, no additional DSP, (he doesn't know how to set up the MiniDSP crossover, for sure), no additional fuss...

You can find desired measurements you referred to as missing simply by reading their review's hire at ASR but I am sure that you already know that.

I have listened both speakers, ASR (and other) measurements confirmed my subjective thoughts.

I find your comment's not polite, to say the least especially as I am certain that you know better.

???
Any quote?

 

[Galliardist]

So I'm confused.

I'm listening to music on an £800 pair of DIRAC EQd Dali Oberon 5's

To me they sound pretty wonderful. Now it is not classical music. I seem to be reading here that if I listen to classical, these speakers are going to sound like shit.

I don't buy it.

Can someone suggest a classical piece (preferable a farily approachable one for an non classical afficianado), that will show me just how shit my speakers really are?

Because at the moment I am 100% convinced that $3000 speakers are going to be more than sufficient for meeting the OP's requirements, and some of you need to get off your high horses, and actually suggest something that meets his reqirements that ARE within budget.

Hmm...

Sibelius’s Valse Triste by Karajan or Gould’s 1981 Goldberg Variations album.

The Sibelius will test things a bit, so try it.

For a more accessible piece, one of my audition items has become the recording of Dvorak's 9th symphony (the New World one), specifically in the Pentatone recording by the Netherlands Philharmonic Orchestra/Yakov Kreizberg. This was done in a rather reverberant accoustic and goes wrong on bad setups (rather than, necessarily, bad speakers). It's on most of the streaming services and may take a couple of minutes to find.

Here's a hint. Your speakers will have no problems playing any of this unless your setup is lousy, which it won't be. I listened to classical music on Kef Coda 2 speakers in a big room for a decade and never had a complaint. Something with a bit more weight in the bass helps with orchestral music, though.

Oh, and give Alchemy by Andrew Blanch and Ariel Nurhadi (guitar duets) a listen as well because it's a good recording and guitar duet is a good way in for someone who doesn't usually listen to classical.

We've got hung up a bit on the OP's specific requirements: I'm not sure either he or we need to be.

 

[Keith_W]

I agree with the need for low dynamic compression, but I disagree with the recommendation for a full-range speaker. For best in-room response it is virtually a must that the mid/treble and the bass drivers can be placed independently from each other. The best place for the mid/trebles is almost guaranteed to be the wrong spot for the bass drivers. I therefore think it is much better to choose stand mount speakers (“bookshelf” is a bad description) with low dynamic compression and even frequency response, and at least two subwoofers to take care of the lower bass. The subwoofers would be placed where the room acoustic demands, which is usually not where the stand mounts are, such as diagonal corners of the room.

You are right, of course. I worded my suggestion poorly. I should have said "need a system capable of reproducing 20Hz - 20kHz" instead of "full range speakers 20Hz - 20kHz". There are many ways to skin a cat.

I have also read a few of the other replies here, particularly the arguments against DSP. I was the first person in this thread to suggest it, and in hindsight I think that those arguing against it are correct. DSP will mitigate a lot of problems with corner placement, but it is also a very steep learning curve to climb and should not be suggested to a beginner.

I think I am as guilty of injecting my values into this discussion as are many people in this thread. Of course the OP can place $3000 bookshelf speakers in the corners and get sound that he would very likely be happy with. We all know the theoretical limitations of such an approach, and we have all heard the effect of doing so ourselves. Many of us with microphones have also measured the effect. However, in the end we are just guys on the internet and will not have to live with his dogs destroying his speaker or his wife beating him over his head. Our priorities are different to his, and I have been guilty of not recognizing that.

So now I will backtrack and say this: the speakers that have been recommended so far are all excellent, and you will likely get performance you would be happy with if you use them. Even if you place them in corners. $3000 can get you really good speakers. If at some point in the future you would like better sound, the upgrade is free. Just move your speakers or sit closer to them. If you want even better sound, there are more avenues open to you but will involve more learning and money. I think we have given you an idea of what is important, and what is not important. For now, get some speakers and start listening to music!

(edit: Glenn Gould is not music)

 

[theREALdotnet]

(edit: Glenn Gould is not music)

Haha, my brother is a fan, though. He likes Gould’s Bach arrangements for Steinway and baritone

 

[ooheadsoo]

The best place to hear a classical guitar is in a smaller venue. Many classical players will have amplification in larger halls (it gets called reinforcement, words...) so you actually do hear that detail these days.
And the player hears less and different sound to the audience. Some modern guitars have holes cut into the top to allow the player to hear more of what they are playing, in fact.

Sound reinforcement takes away most of the acoustic characteristics of classical music, which was definitely not originally amplified. Anyway, when it comes to live music, you have to do what it takes to make it enjoyable for the audience, who is paying to hear the music. I'm actually thinking more about fretboard and picking noise, which you would usually not hear unless you're the player.

Anyway, the point of the recommendation is to bring wide dispersion into the picture. Without it, you can often end up hearing 30 violins coming out of what sounds like a single point in space.

 

[Deleted member 48726]

So I'm confused.

I'm listening to music right now on an £800 pair of DIRAC EQd Dali Oberon 5's

To me they sound pretty wonderful. Now it is not classical music. I seem to be reading here that if I listen to classical, these speakers are going to sound like shit.

I don't buy it.

Can someone suggest a classical piece (preferable a farily approachable one for an non classical afficianado), that will show me just how shit my speakers really are?

Because at the moment I am 100% convinced that $3000 speakers are going to be more than sufficient for meeting the OP's requirements, and some of you need to get off your high horses, and actually suggest something that meets his reqirements that ARE within budget.

Try this. Made my system sound like absolute Schiit. Maybe your Oberons are good enough? -Give it a go.

 

[Galliardist]

Try this. Made my system sound like absolute Schiit. Maybe your Oberons are good enough? -Give it a go.

Ha! Good job I checked that through headphones... my wife's got a new hearing aid and would have been straight down to return it if I'd run it through the speakers instead!

 

[ZolaIII]

@Vladimir Filevski
I had enough of you!

So where did the 6 dB+ come from?
How much is sustainable?
And that is at 2.3 m so - 6 dB @ 4 m.
DBR62 (86.7) with sub croseed at 100 Hz needs 128 W to achieve 107.7 dB @ 1 m - 6 dB 2 m and - 12 4 m. And I don't have problem pushing Elac's that hard (short term at least and -6 dB long term). That's 1.7 dB more than Nuuman KH150 if he played with sub's but as it isn't it's 7.7 dB more and all the way down to 31.5 Hz like that, no sweat.

"Any quote?" pretty much everything!

You don't buy stronger stand alone amplifier because you really need that much power but to have a headroom and not to push it hard even when you push the speakers and to have enough power to compensate for loudness normalisation (EBU R128) and you can't do that with embedded in speakers one's.

Edit: As it is my at least 6 dB more prediction ended up being more of a 8~9 dB more with room gain and sub's 7.7 thanks to combo and rest thanks to room gain thanks to wider dispersion so I whose actually modest.
Edit: will it play louder? Yes (considerably).
Will it sound better? Yes both based on calculated score and subjective (thanks to that is louder, thanks to less room problems it will create, possibly to do proper and better placement, a bass octave more).
Is it a better equipment? No doubt it's better amplifier and better DSP.
Which speakers are better? Neumann.
Which system is better? No doubt one proposed by me.
And cetera and cetera.

 

[Vladimir Filevski]

@Vladimir Filevski
I had enough of you!

I have enough of you, too.
Do not compare apples and oranges, please.
Here are the real world measurement (not theoretical SPL vs wattage!) of Neumann KH 150 for maximum SPL with max. 3% distortion:

See the Neumann KH 150 measurements here:
https://www.soundandrecording.de/equipment/neumann-kh-150-2-wege-nearfield-monitor-im-test/
SPL=103dB at 100Hz, SPL=110dB at 800Hz and SPL=115dB at 2kHz with no more than THD=3%. Elac DBR62 can only dream about that low distortion at such high SPL.

Show me the real world maximum SPL measurements for Elac DBR-62 with "1kW" amplifier, but at max. 3% distortion!

So where did the 6 dB+ come from?
How much is sustainable?
And that is at 2.3 m so - 6 dB @ 4 m.
DBR62 (86.7) with sub croseed at 100 Hz needs 128 W to achieve 107.7 dB @ 1 m - 6 dB 2 m and - 12 4 m. And I don't have problem pushing Elac's that hard (short term at least and -6 dB long term ). That's 1.7 dB more than Nuuman KH150 if he played with sub's but as it isn't it's 7.7 dB more and all the way down to 31.5 Hz like that, no sweat.

Pure (theorethical) phantasy! How many percents distortion will have Elac DBR-62 at 107.7 dB? And how many dB compression loss at 128W? Real-world measurements, please!

"Any quote?" pretty much everything!

Another phantasy. You are not able to support with facts your phantasies/allegations. You are on my ignore list.

You don't buy stronger stand alone amplifier because you really need that much power but to have a headroom and not to push it hard even when you push the speakers and to have enough power to compensate for loudness normalisation (EBU R128) and you can't do that with embedded in speakers one's.

150W amplifier for Elac DBR-62 (your proposal) has the same headroom as the 145W amplifier embedded in Neumann KH-150. Actually, Neumann has separate 100W only for the tweeter duties, so it has much higher headroom above 2kHz than Elac DBR-62, because KH-150 tweeter has higher sensitivity than padded down DBR-62 tweeter.

At last, but no least:

Elac DBR-62 may be more than enough for the OP (even without subwoofer), but because his budget for the speakers is about $3000, than then - why not Neumann KH 150?

... Does the OP need them? Does he need measurement microphone, MIniDSP, two subwoofers, etc? As far as I know, he asks for a pair of good bookshelf loudspeakers, nothing else. No two additional big subwoofers, no additional DSP, (he doesn't know how to set up the MiniDSP crossover, for sure), no additional fuss...

 

[Newman]

…cue theme music for Battle Royale…

I suspect the OP’s real needs have been left in the wake of the tornado, because I have come to think that, being relatively the novice, he accidentally overemphasised power handling in his OP. Especially outside the bass.