• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Putting THD in the perspective

FrantzM

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 12, 2016
Messages
4,372
Likes
7,863
Hi

I will read this thread more carefully. I do infer from it however that it is best to use multiple subwoofers and to cross over the mains at circa 80 Hz... The rising level of THD in the lows is, to me, compelling.
Carry on people! much enlightening
 

Thomas_A

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jun 20, 2019
Messages
3,460
Likes
2,448
Location
Sweden
That's an interesting measurement.
How exactly are you doing it?
One sine wave per 1/12th octave?
Then you limit the measurement time to avoid reflections? That's what you mean by "gated"?
If 7ms is the gate time, how do you measure below 140Hz?
And why 1.2m?
Wouldn't that be more accurate by having the mic much closer (1cm or so)?
Of course, you'd need to combine each individual driver data then.

Below is another measurement in REW increasing the level somewhat. The relative noise floor goes down a bit, distortion increases a bit. This level is now more than I am comfortable with.

REW distortion higher level.png
 
OP
Krunok

Krunok

Major Contributor
Joined
Mar 25, 2018
Messages
4,600
Likes
3,067
Location
Zg, Cro
So, as measurements are showing chances are your listening room is, as mine is, flooded with 35-40dB of noise, if not more. That means that even 1% THD will be effectively burried into the noise floor. But speaking of famous THD/IMD, let me quote what Dr. Toole is saying about it in his book:

"Thus began the legend that harmonic distortions are relatively benign and intermodulation distortions are bad. It is true in the context of these test signals, but they are both simply different ways of quantifying the same problem (the nonlinearity in the loudspeaker), and neither test signal (one tone or two) is even a crude approximation of human voices or music. Contributing to the mismatch between perception and measurement is the fact that such a technical measurement totally ignores masking. Included in the numbers generated by the measurements are distortion components that, to humans, are partially or completely masked. The numbers are wrong. The end result of this is that traditional measures of harmonic or intermodulation distortion are almost meaningless.

They do not quantify distortion in a way that can, with any reliability, predict a human response to it while listening to music or movies. They do not correlate because they ignore any characteristics of the human receptor, an outrageously nonlinear device in its own right.

In loudspeakers it is fortunate that distortion is something that normally does not become obvious until devices are driven close to or into some limiting condition. In large-venue professional devices, this is a situation that can occur frequently. In the general population of consumer loudspeakers, it has been very rare for distortion to be identifi ed as a factor in the overall subjective ratings. This is not because distortion is not there or is not measurable, but it is low enough that it is not an obvious factor in judgments of sound quality at normal foreground listening levels. "

And that's pretty much it, I left a few paragraphs not to make post too long. So, in a book of 540 pages there are only 2 pages about distortion. Add that to the fact that spinorama charts also doesn't involve distortion and you got the picture of what THD/IMD figures really mean to our ears. Hopefully.
 

Thomas_A

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jun 20, 2019
Messages
3,460
Likes
2,448
Location
Sweden
If you have a speaker with a sensitivity of 85 dB/1W/1m, you will get 91 dB/pair but loose around 8-9 dB 3.5-4 meter from the speaker. So 1W/speaker gives you ≈82 dB at listening seat both speakers driven. Applying a crest factor of 20 for a dynamic record or movie, you will get 102 dB peak (2x128 W amp gives you 1 dB headroom for the peaks). Even if you have a noise floor of 35-40 dB(A), there is around 40-45 dB difference to the average and 60-65 dB to the peaks, where distortion is more likely to happen.
 

amirm

Founder/Admin
Staff Member
CFO (Chief Fun Officer)
Joined
Feb 13, 2016
Messages
44,595
Likes
239,637
Location
Seattle Area

amirm

Founder/Admin
Staff Member
CFO (Chief Fun Officer)
Joined
Feb 13, 2016
Messages
44,595
Likes
239,637
Location
Seattle Area
So, as measurements are showing chances are your listening room is, as mine is, flooded with 35-40dB of noise, if not more.
Audibility of tones is not the same as noise. We hear through the noise. Furthermore, noise in the room is from all directions. Electronic noise through the speaker is directional. And such, it is more audible. There an entire AES journal peer reviewed paper on this (actually a few) by ex-president of AES, Luis Fielder: Dynamic-Range Issues in the Modern Digital Audio Environment. http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=7948

You can also read a summary of it in my published article: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/dynamic-range-how-quiet-is-quiet.14/
 

Hypnotoad

Active Member
Joined
Feb 17, 2019
Messages
230
Likes
239
Location
Melbourne, Australia
If you look at Paul Carmody's Classix II speaker he even says that:

"The Classix II is designed around the Dayton DC160 6.5" woofer. It's pretty easy to tell that I have a penchant for this driver--you may also notice that audiophiles and engineer-types eschew the DC160. I think it's all a matter of looking at the driver objectively vs. subjectively. Objectively, it has a "simple motor design" and its harmonic distortion graphs aren't all that impressive."
https://sites.google.com/site/undefinition/classix-ii

"This woofer does not perform very well, with horrible tall order harmonic distortion right smack in the midrange."
http://zaphaudio.com/6.5test/

Even with it's high THD he loves the sound of it, people have built this speaker and are impressed with the sound as well while ZaphAudio virtually says to steer well clear of it. So maybe like the OP is finding THD in speakers is not as bad as first thought.
 

mitchco

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Audio Company
Joined
May 24, 2016
Messages
643
Likes
2,408
For some measurement mics, but generally good ones aren't going to be your limitation. The big issue at any reasonable and meaningful test level and distance is still noise (room, mostly), mic distortion runs a distant third except at really high SPL. That's why I usually use a PCB Piezotronics 376A32 1/2" phantom calibrated omni for 1M and room measurement, but switch to a 376A31 1/4" for Keele-style near-field.

Hi @SIY, other than the Earthworks publishing a distortion spec for their mics (I had to ask their engineers to send me a graph see attached for M23)
M30_THD.jpg
The only other manufacture that I could find that published a distortion spec is http://www.isemcon.com/datasheets/EMX7150-US-r04.pdf .

I had a quick look at PCB Piezotronics 376A32 and see a distortion spec (or dynamic range) at 3% at 137 dB, but did not see if that was for 1 kHz or the full frequency range?

Other than the Earthworks, (great review by the way that @amirm linked to), most electret mics found in virtually all inexpensive measurement mics have rather poor distortion specs, most won't even provide a spec... So measuring speaker distortion without an M50, seems rather hit and miss. Thoughts?
Finally, what are your thoughts here, especially about distortion products become inaudible due to masking as described in this article: https://www.dpamicrophones.com/mic-university/the-basics-about-distortion-in-mics
Thank you.
 

scott wurcer

Major Contributor
Audio Luminary
Technical Expert
Joined
Apr 24, 2019
Messages
1,501
Likes
2,822
@SIY, good read there. How did you measure the distortions on that microphone?
I would try the two speaker IM test as a double check on any distortion measurements. A microphone is fairly well behaved as a low order non-linear device and mathematically the two speaker test isolates the microphones transfer function.
 

scott wurcer

Major Contributor
Audio Luminary
Technical Expert
Joined
Apr 24, 2019
Messages
1,501
Likes
2,822
Hi

Other than the Earthworks, (great review by the way that [USER=2]@amirm
linked to), most electret mics found in virtually all inexpensive measurement mics have rather poor distortion specs, most won't even provide a spec... So measuring speaker distortion without an M50, seems rather hit and miss. Thoughts?
.

The mod to make the cheap electrets into source followers makes a huge difference in distortion, IIRC Earthworks used/uses selected cheap electrets.
I have made measurements on some Primo capsules that are very good using my own test fixture consisting of a DIY piston chamber and medical grade pressure transducer
 

mitchco

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Audio Company
Joined
May 24, 2016
Messages
643
Likes
2,408
Thanks, but I want to purchase a ready made commercial mic with a low distortion spec and maybe not quite at the Earthworks price. Can you recommend one?
 

SIY

Grand Contributor
Technical Expert
Joined
Apr 6, 2018
Messages
10,482
Likes
25,234
Location
Alfred, NY
Hi @SIY, other than the Earthworks publishing a distortion spec for their mics (I had to ask their engineers to send me a graph see attached for M23)
View attachment 34299
The only other manufacture that I could find that published a distortion spec is http://www.isemcon.com/datasheets/EMX7150-US-r04.pdf .

I had a quick look at PCB Piezotronics 376A32 and see a distortion spec (or dynamic range) at 3% at 137 dB, but did not see if that was for 1 kHz or the full frequency range?

Other than the Earthworks, (great review by the way that @amirm linked to), most electret mics found in virtually all inexpensive measurement mics have rather poor distortion specs, most won't even provide a spec... So measuring speaker distortion without an M50, seems rather hit and miss. Thoughts?
Finally, what are your thoughts here, especially about distortion products become inaudible due to masking as described in this article: https://www.dpamicrophones.com/mic-university/the-basics-about-distortion-in-mics
Thank you.

The iSEMcon is my favorite in the moderate price range- I haven't measured distortion, but can run some curves next weekend. The PCB phantom power mics have extremely low distortion, but they may be over your budget (I think they're in the $1200-1500 range). And the DPA 4099 is even lower in distortion, but doesn't have the omni pattern or flat response you'd want for measurement.

@amirm I think I described the method in that article- I do a nearfield measurement on a high quality bass-midrange driver. The same driver gave me distortion measurements an order of magnitude better with the DPA mic in its review in AudioXpress, so the driver isn't the limitation until we get to 0.05% or so at 110dB SPL.
 

Rja4000

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
May 31, 2019
Messages
2,752
Likes
4,643
Location
Liège, Belgium
The iSEMcon is my favorite in the moderate price range- I haven't measured distortion, but can run some curves next weekend. The PCB phantom power mics have extremely low distortion, but they may be over your budget (I think they're in the $1200-1500 range). And the DPA 4099 is even lower in distortion, but doesn't have the omni pattern or flat response you'd want for measurement.

@amirm I think I described the method in that article- I do a nearfield measurement on a high quality bass-midrange driver. The same driver gave me distortion measurements an order of magnitude better with the DPA mic in its review in AudioXpress, so the driver isn't the limitation until we get to 0.05% or so at 110dB SPL.
Hi
@SIY
Is there a chance you could test a DPA4060?
It's an omni and I suppose (but thats just a guess) that they use the same small electret diaphragm than the 4099.
If so, do it with removing the smallish windscreen, which is modifying the frequency response (on purpose: they even have 2 different profiles).

I have a few 4061 here, which are lower sensitivity versions (4099 also comes in 2 sensitivity versions).
But sending to you if you're outside of Europe would be too much of a headache, I'm afraid.
 
OP
Krunok

Krunok

Major Contributor
Joined
Mar 25, 2018
Messages
4,600
Likes
3,067
Location
Zg, Cro
Furthermore, noise in the room is from all directions. Electronic noise through the speaker is directional. And such, it is more audible.

So, when music is playing at say average level of 90dB are you saying we can hear electronic noise from the amp (which has say 90dB SNR) through the room's noise of 35-40dB?
 

Thomas_A

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jun 20, 2019
Messages
3,460
Likes
2,448
Location
Sweden
It is possible to hear tones and speech below the noise floor, yes. The JNDs depend on a lot of things.
 

SIY

Grand Contributor
Technical Expert
Joined
Apr 6, 2018
Messages
10,482
Likes
25,234
Location
Alfred, NY
Hi
@SIY
Is there a chance you could test a DPA4060?
It's an omni and I suppose (but thats just a guess) that they use the same small electret diaphragm than the 4099.
If so, do it with removing the smallish windscreen, which is modifying the frequency response (on purpose: they even have 2 different profiles).

I have a few 4061 here, which are lower sensitivity versions (4099 also comes in 2 sensitivity versions).
But sending to you if you're outside of Europe would be too much of a headache, I'm afraid.

Unfortunately (or maybe fortunately!) I am not in Europe. But if someone wants to loan me one, I can run a distortion sweep.
 
OP
Krunok

Krunok

Major Contributor
Joined
Mar 25, 2018
Messages
4,600
Likes
3,067
Location
Zg, Cro
Unfortunately (or maybe fortunately!) I am not in Europe. But if someone wants to loan me one, I can run a distortion sweep.

Don't worry, soon neither Thomas will be. :D
 
  • Like
Reactions: SIY

Rja4000

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
May 31, 2019
Messages
2,752
Likes
4,643
Location
Liège, Belgium
Unfortunately (or maybe fortunately!) I am not in Europe.
Well, I don't see what's infortunate to live here.
Except taxes, of course. :)

By the way, I find Virtins Multi Instrument really nice. A bit unstable at times, but nice.
 

SIY

Grand Contributor
Technical Expert
Joined
Apr 6, 2018
Messages
10,482
Likes
25,234
Location
Alfred, NY
By the way, I find Virtins Multi Instrument really nice. A bit unstable at times, but nice.

Glad it worked out for you. Steep learning curve, but remarkably versatile, easily my favorite measurement software for use with soundcards and external ADC/DAC.
 
Top Bottom