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Purifi vs. Pascal - What is going on?

jokan

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Aaand you lost me... I find potential sonic differences in amplifiers (competently designed or otherwise) should a be a pretty well documented topic at this point, potentially even DACs, considering the AES documentation showing that even OP Amps alone can audibly alter sound, never mind the full circuit they’re integrated in - so I hope no one is clutching their pearls at thatat this point, even if we contend such differences are small enough to generally be ignored/not noticed by most, rather than the exaggerated/hyperbolic differences sometimes described for the sake of ease of communication.
However when we get into audible differences in power cables I’m going to step away and ask for any inkling of proof. I know well respected acoustic engineers who swear by power cables mattering, but so far I’ve personally heard nothing to suggest such, having experimented with it, and I’ve seen no evidence for it either - at least with fx. Speaker cables multiple peoples measurements (not peer reviewed etc, but it at least lends more credence than pure anecdote) have shown repeatable differences big enough to be theoretically audible... no such thing with any other system cabling that I’m aware of.

Not to mention it’s completely off topic and just calls the rest of the statements made into question.

But otherwise interesting information.

I don't believe that I started my posts off topic, I answered some questions that were at the head of the topic.

On the topic of power cables. I can give you an example. Remember CRT TV's? If you replace the fuse with an audio grade fuse the colour becomes significantly different, richer is the word. I wouldn't say more realistic but definitely richer and maybe more dense. Power cable is much the same. I don't buy name brand power cables anymore. I buy cables from reputable vendors here in Japan. The land of the Otaku. The land were we still have a bunch of leftover GI electronics such as valves. The cable I just purchased cost me 6500yen. That's less than $65. The guy has an internet shop dealing only with power cables and nothing more. Not an XLR cable in sight nor an RCA cable. Though he can make XLR's out of the same 99.9999 purity virgin copper, Australian Copper if it makes any difference. I've long since stopped buying name brand power cable as they rarely use virgin copper much less high purity virgin copper and I will only use solid core copper. Multi-Strand was made popular by Noel Lee of Monster Cable fame who used to bring his cars into the shop I used to work at when I lived in California. Multi-Strand and OFC is a total gimmick. I am talking strictly about sound. It took my new cables 2 days of 6 hours each of record playing through one of my tube amps to fully burn-in and the difference from my previous cable, VS brand new cable, VS burned in cable was significant. You're right to be skeptical. I've tried many power cords and heard very little difference. Rhodium plated plugs and sockets were better imo than thin gold plating. Furutech makes great plugs and sockets along with Oyaide.

Yes, now I've gone way off topic by further discussing power cords but this is how conversations go.
Why are you afraid of a conflicting, or alternate opinion. Audio is ultimately your personal taste. There is plenty of information out there that is based on measurements alone, some that use "vague" terms like open, airy. But we don't have any other way of describing what we hear.

I'll stop now and let you carry on Lord Victor.
 

tw99

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Great to know that you have experience of Monster Cable Guy's car. That really makes all the nonsense you've posted much more believable.
 

BDWoody

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I've posted about power cords and there are plenty of ultra high-end companies that make mains cables.

Which is a damn shame. I hope they all go out of business and find honest work.

Now, back to our issue that doesn't reside in the realm of the completely ridiculous.
 
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Lord Victor

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I don't believe that I started my posts off topic, I answered some questions that were at the head of the topic.

On the topic of power cables. I can give you an example. Remember CRT TV's? If you replace the fuse with an audio grade fuse the colour becomes significantly different, richer is the word. I wouldn't say more realistic but definitely richer and maybe more dense. Power cable is much the same. I don't buy name brand power cables anymore. I buy cables from reputable vendors here in Japan. The land of the Otaku. The land were we still have a bunch of leftover GI electronics such as valves. The cable I just purchased cost me 6500yen. That's less than $65. The guy has an internet shop dealing only with power cables and nothing more. Not an XLR cable in sight nor an RCA cable. Though he can make XLR's out of the same 99.9999 purity virgin copper, Australian Copper if it makes any difference. I've long since stopped buying name brand power cable as they rarely use virgin copper much less high purity virgin copper and I will only use solid core copper. Multi-Strand was made popular by Noel Lee of Monster Cable fame who used to bring his cars into the shop I used to work at when I lived in California. Multi-Strand and OFC is a total gimmick. I am talking strictly about sound. It took my new cables 2 days of 6 hours each of record playing through one of my tube amps to fully burn-in and the difference from my previous cable, VS brand new cable, VS burned in cable was significant. You're right to be skeptical. I've tried many power cords and heard very little difference. Rhodium plated plugs and sockets were better imo than thin gold plating. Furutech makes great plugs and sockets along with Oyaide.

Yes, now I've gone way off topic by further discussing power cords but this is how conversations go.
Why are you afraid of a conflicting, or alternate opinion. Audio is ultimately your personal taste. There is plenty of information out there that is based on measurements alone, some that use "vague" terms like open, airy. But we don't have any other way of describing what we hear.

I'll stop now and let you carry on Lord Victor.
Oh don’t worry, you didn’t start off topic, that was all fine - it was just the power cables bit... I’m personally open to discussing such topics, not “afraid”, just for posterity if nothing else, in case someone actually brings something genuinely audible to light. But I also know this forum isn’t a good setting for it unless you have very solid proof - so back on topic, where there is at least a little ground to stand on here ;)
At any rate, thank you for chiming in!
 

jokan

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Oh don’t worry, you didn’t start off topic, that was all fine - it was just the power cables but... I’m personally open to discussing such topics, not “afraid”, just for posterity. But I also know this forum isn’t a good setting for it unless you have very solid proof.
At any rate, thank you for chiming in!

I sense a lot of people who do an awful lot of reading on this forum. Which is great as we should all strive to learn more. But is this place twitter, or facebook with fakenews everywhere? I am merely speaking of my personal experience and have zero reason to embellish anything. I've been in the audio industry in one way or another since 1992. I built my first amplifier from scratch when I was 10. I really don't need to prove my knowledge and experience. I would in fact invite people as I have to try other cables, combinations of amplifiers and speakers to find the best match that suits their gear. This is how we learn collectively. And yes, Noel Lee did bring his cars into the shop that I worked at in 1995-96. His minions would drop off his new toy and i'd lower the car and put new wheels on it. I went back to Hi-Fi after getting tired of working for minions of minions. And I still contend that multi-strand OFC is one of the greatest scams that have nothing to do with sound quality but rather aesthetics and ease of installation. So this will be my final post. And I will block everybody other than mods, and you Lord Victor!
 

MrPeabody

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...One of the things that I've noticed is that often times I've seen loudspeakers that are highly efficient as in 100db/watt range efficient mated to a class D amplifier isn't the best match. ... Amplifiers today simply are not designed for ultra high efficiency speakers. Those high efficiency speakers are from an era of single ended tube amplifiers with little to no damping factor. So they have loose bass to begin with. The enclosures are designed to compensate and help control those vibrations. ... As much as I love a Class D amplifier with 1000 or so damping factor, a few of my speakers don't like that much damping factor. They're happier below 300. Damping factor and loudspeaker design go hand in hand with amplifier design. Chances are that a high efficiency, 15" or greater woofer + horn tweeter isn't going to sound great with any Class-D amplifier. It would probably sound far better with a 10-30 watt tube amplifier. Most loudspeakers today have a mid to high 80db/watt efficiency. They run stiff suspension in their drivers (spider), stiff rolled surrounds, lightweight cones to compensate but the motor assembly is resistant to movement. Hence the punchy bass that modern speakers can deliver when playing Trentmoller. The modern speaker wants power to sound it's best. Therefore any difference in amplifier architecture will sound different. Unless you are specifically talking about a pre-built, OEM class d amp like an ICEPower, or OEM Pascal, or Hypex or N-Core, even the Puri-Fi. Unless you modify the OEM with some creative engineering, you will likely only notice the difference in generations of class D. And you will have your preference.

I'm saying that all of this is perfectly okay and not something to compete about spec for spec. Each application is different. The key is to figure out what best matches your gear. To figure out which equipment favours your equipment it's going to be a bit of trial and error along with your personal preference. There is no "wrong" answer. Unless you're trying to power Magico loudspeakers with a 5watt/channel tube amplifier! The crossover alone would eat most of that output power.

If you've ever played around with different Mains Cables, you'll be surprised and shocked at how big a difference they make. I'm currently using solid core, 10 gauge virgin copper cable that is 99.9999 or six-nine purity. ... A good cable takes away the salt and pepper. You only hear the components within whatever equipment it is connected to. Every single thing in the audio/power chain makes a difference, not on paper, but definitely to the human ear. Electrical engineers hate me most of the time because of what I have to say. But once they hear the differences with cables, they become converts with no understanding of why things sounded different. Sound and what you like is personal so there really isn't a right answer. There is in circuit design, circuit layout, shielding of components.
Happy listening!

You didn't really need to add the part about mains cables, because before you got to that point, you had already made a good number of bizarre claims without any substantiation for any of it. I think you may have set a new record of some sort.

When someone writes a bunch of stuff like you've written, what is the reason or agenda? Surely the purpose cannot be to make other people take you more seriously. Surely you realized that when you write something like what you wrote, it will only make other people ignore everything you say. So what was the purpose? Just a few weeks ago another member here did something very similar, in a thread having to do with recommendation for improving the sound of a certain headphone. What exactly is it that makes someone write this kind of stuff? I just do not understand it.
 

jokan

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You didn't really need to add the part about mains cables, because before you got to that point, you had already made a good number of bizarre claims without any substantiation for any of it. I think you may have set a new record of some sort.

When someone writes a bunch of stuff like you've written, what is the reason or agenda? Surely the purpose cannot be to make other people take you more seriously. Surely you realized that when you write something like what you wrote, it will only make other people ignore everything you say. So what was the purpose? Just a few weeks ago another member here did something very similar, in a thread having to do with recommendation for improving the sound of a certain headphone. What exactly is it that makes someone write this kind of stuff? I just do not understand it.

I will respond in private to your post.
 

BDWoody

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But is this place twitter, or facebook with fakenews everywhere?

It does seem like a game of whack-a-mole sometimes, but we do our best.

Evidence is valued. Anecdote is not. Claims of difference/preference without evidence is the fakenews.

You can move on to other threads please.
 

MrPeabody

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... I really don't need to prove my knowledge and experience. ...

Oh yes you do. When anyone comes here and makes a long string of wild unsubstantiated claims that make everyone else fall out of their chairs, you DO have to do something to validate the claims. How would it make sense for everyone who participates in these forums to write posts where all they do is make a long list of all the stuff they believe, and then when they called out in the manner that was inevitable, for them to get defensive and say that they don't need to prove anything because they have the experience to back it up? This kind of thing does not constitute intelligent discussion. In order for there to be intelligent discussion, people absolutely have to have REASONS for making the claims they make.
 

Frank Dernie

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I was chatting with a HiFi manufacturer, who was also chief designer of his company, a few years ago.
He told me he could hear when he changed the pcb layout so the traces had a radius rather than sharp corners. He was serious. I did not believe him.
 

Kw6

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I have no experience with Purifi amps but have lived with Pascal mpro2 and Hypex Nc500 and Nc1200. To me Nc1200 is the most satisfying class d I've ever heard that sounds like real music.

Thanks for the feedback! I would have thought Pascale would have been the most musical!
 
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Lord Victor

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Thanks for the feedback! I would have thought Pascale would have been the most musical!
No idea what the other pascal modules sound like, but the one I had was very ‘sterile’ or non musical, but sounded extremely detailed technical… which was very impressive, but not necessarily fun/musical always. Maybe with som sort of warmer or tube front end…
That’s mine and a bunch of other people subjective/anecdotal experiences anyway :)

Though I’d say nCore isn’t exactly “musical” either… just less sterile. And the Purifi slightly less so. But neither “warm” per se. but that’s all relative of course.
The only class D I’ve heard I’d call ‘warm’ is Klank. But don’t know of any commercially available version of that amp sadly.
 

Kw6

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No idea what the other pascal modules sound like, but the one I had was very ‘sterile’ or non musical, but sounded extremely detailed technical… which was very impressive, but not necessarily fun/musical always. Maybe with som sort of warmer or tube front end…
That’s mine and a bunch of other people subjective/anecdotal experiences anyway :)

Though I’d say nCore isn’t exactly “musical” either… just less sterile. And the Purifi slightly less so. But neither “warm” per se. but that’s all relative of course.
The only class D I’ve heard I’d call ‘warm’ is Klank. But don’t know of any commercially available version of that amp sadly.

Ok thanks! Your experience with so many types class D amps has given me a good perspective of what I can expect!
 
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Lord Victor

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Ok thanks! Your experience with so many types class D amps has given me a good perspective of what I can expect!
No problem! I think the nCore and Purifi are closest to neutral of them - and sound very similar to my Thule IA100 which is also a very neutral/non-warm sounding class AB amp.
 
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Gorgonzola

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The noise and distortion of all these amplifiers is almost certainly below any threshold at which they might become audible. The most likely explanations are (1) that levels were not correctly matched and that your brain interpreted this as one amp sounding different from the others, (2) that the Pascal's high-frequency response is a little different into your loudspeakers' load, and/or (3) psychological (and I mean that with no intention of causing offence; we are all, as humans, unreliable witnesses to our own experiences and memories).

Are you able to repeat the test blind and with voltage-matched levels?

EDIT: having looked at the Pascal datasheet now, I would say it's very unlikely, but not impossible, that nonlinear distortion it produces in the high frequencies might be marginally audible under some circumstances. But would still be pretty shocked if this were the cause of the differences you heard.
Same old objectivist cant.

Human? Speak for yourself. :p
 

rajapruk

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I have owned JBL Ti10k and they are a bit Lean in the bass to my liking (even if they look very bass-capable to the eye).
Could subjectively maybe sound better with amps with less control in the bass (lower damping factor?), so they get more ”bloomy”?
 

tmtomh

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Same old objectivist cant.

Human? Speak for yourself. :p

“Same old” = repeatable and verifiable. Speaking for yourself is great. But without objective measurements you’re only speaking to and about yourself, which is of no real use to anyone else - which in turn makes it of questionable utility in a forum, where the whole point is to communicate information that’s meaningful to others.
 

Kw6

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No problem! I think the nCore and Purifi are closest to neutral of them - and sound very similar to my Thule IA100 which is also a very neutral/non-warm sounding class AB amp.

Thanks again!
 

mocenigo

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As Steve Guttenberg said, the best hifi system, is the one that makes you want to listen to more music. I'd caveat that with saying its the 'subjectively best', [...]
The Purifi is brilliant on paper, and is load invariant, which is amazing, but at the end of the day its just mildly boring sounding in a way.

No amplifier I have owned made me want to listen to more music than my Neurochrome/Purifi build.
 
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