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Purifi vs. Pascal - What is going on?

Mnyb

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The Pascal amps are used in at least one residential speaker: the Dutch & Dutch 8c, which is the residential version of the “8c studio.”

I own a pair and based on their sound , I agree with the description of the highs in the Pascal amps not being sweet or “wet”, to use a studio term. One reviewer (I can’t remember who it was, as there have been so many reviews of the 8c.) said he found the highs somewhat dry. Kalman Rubinson in his Stereophile review said he thought the highs had less “air” and “space” than the Kii Audio Three, which use Hypex modules (not sure of they are Purifi at this point). My solution was to change from my solid state Bel Canto DAC/pre (DAC3.5VB MKII) to an Ayon tube DAC/pre (Stealth XS). Adding a bit of tube warmth and liquidity to the drier, more analytical sound of the 8c gave me exactly what I wanted, the best of both worlds. Yes this is totally subjective, but I am reporting it to confirm what Lord Victor and his listening panel heard.

What a weird idea you realise that the D&D AD converts the inputs and then doing it's thing with its software including xover and then DA converts to the amps inside ? so using their digital inputs directly is a better idea .
And have a digital source with some form of EQ if the tonality is not to your liking ?
 

SpaceMonkey

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What a weird idea you realise that the D&D AD converts the inputs and then doing it's thing with its software including xover and then DA converts to the amps inside ? so using their digital inputs directly is a better idea .
And have a digital source with some form of EQ if the tonality is not to your liking ?
You are correct. Also you don't even need an EQ, you can just load filters from REW into D&D 8c directly!
 

Arash

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I have no experience with Purifi amps but have lived with Pascal mpro2 and Hypex Nc500 and Nc1200. To me Nc1200 is the most satisfying class d I've ever heard that sounds like real music.
 

Mnyb

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You are correct. Also you don't even need an EQ, you can just load filters from REW into D&D 8c directly!

Cool if I ever get me one of these . Load a REW curve with room EQ + some preference tuning , personally I like it a bit softer tone .
But i would still try to have a source with EQ or tone controls for these pescy recordings that's seems to vary in tonality .
 

SpaceMonkey

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Cool if I ever get me one of these . Load a REW curve with room EQ + some preference tuning , personally I like it a bit softer tone .
But i would still try to have a source with EQ or tone controls for these pescy recordings that's seems to vary in tonality .
Not 100% sure but possibly D&D even allows for profiles. If not then an automation tools like Selenium can take care of profiles ;)
 
OP
Lord Victor

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It is used in several hi-fi/high-end products. Aavik, Mytek, Jeff Rowland to name a few.
OP got hold of the modules somewhere, though. And I am curious where.
I borrowed it briefly from a local company that uses them, which is why I no longer have access to it sadly.

none of the companies mentioned above use this specific module to my knowledge though. Gato also uses some pascal modules; the Spro series I believe.
 

SpaceMonkey

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I borrowed it briefly from a local company that uses them, which is why I no longer have access to it sadly.

none of the companies mentioned above use this specific module to my knowledge though. Gato also uses some pascal modules; the Spro series I believe.
aah, now it is clear. but you used some sort of interface board to the modules or figured out how to feed them directly?
 
OP
Lord Victor

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aah, now it is clear. but you used some sort of interface board to the modules or figured out how to feed them directly?
They make something to the Purifi EVAL board, for manufacturers to use as an input board when evaluating the amps, which I borrowed along with it.
 
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Lord Victor

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Assuming this is a retail amp that also uses the same Pascal module that you tested?

https://vtvamplifier.com/product/vtv-amplifier-stereo-pascal-lpro-2s-amplifier-800wx2/
It would appear so - I’m unsure in which configuration though. The power output etc makes me think it might be dual amp boards running bridged, which they’re slightly less ideal for from what I’ve heard. And don’t know if they’re using the off the shelf evaluation input boards or not... but yes, it looks like one of the few ways to get that amp as a consumer :)
 

jokan

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I'm a big fan of both Puri-Fi and Pascal (modded by Mytek). They both have their place. Puri-Fi is still a little exotic and pricey not that the Mytek amps with PASCAL aren't. There is such a thing as equipment matching and personal preference. For instance what sounds great on electronic music, 70's/80's pop music, Jazz music might not sound as good with say a full orchestral piece of music with an equally good player, cartridge, and phonostage. All Class D amplifiers are in fact PWM switching amplifiers. They are all subject to EMI and RFI. One company I work with has gone as far as purchase paint from NASA that all but eliminates EMI leakage within their amplifiers power supply and yes, you can hear the difference when you visit their showroom where they have coated and uncoated side by side. Will you in fact notice this when you bring your new equipment home? I doubt it. But you will definitely hear a difference in circuit design and implementation by various brands. To call one cool, and the other warm is ultimately subjective. If you like one, then that's the component for you. If you prefer the other, then you again have your answer.

So I again stress that it all depends on your specific application and needs. Is your room the perfect listening room? This doesn't mean having an anechoic chamber for a listening room. You probably want to have some reflections in your listening room just like a small concert venue. Just make sure you eliminate ringing in your room. Clap your hands in the centre of your room, if it rings, then you need to sort that out.

You can purchase EMI shielding films from several companies and if you don't believe in the efficacy, you can buy just a roll of tape that is 10mm wide by however long it is, apply a strip above and below your speaker terminals on your speaker making sure you don't let the tape touch the positive and negative terminals shorting them out. The tiny strip of EMI absorbing tape will make a shocking difference to what you hear. Obviously power going through cables will create a field of electrons, the tape will minimize this radiation. With Class D, switching PWM amplifiers you will have heaps of EMI if not designed properly. Will you hear it? Yes if you have another device to run an a/b test at the same output level. Will you like one over the other? Yes you will. Is one correct and the other incorrect? That is something that I think is best left to the user.

Class-D has come a long, long way. And the newer it is, somehow the better it seems. We hear things like slew rates with our ears, even though most op-amps discrete or otherwise have numbers below what is considered audible. Slew rate I would argue is more important than distortion ratings. Damping factor is something that is highly debatable based on your exact speaker. Some like high damping factors, some other speakers definitely do not. There's no singular correct answer.

I have several class-D amplifiers and 2 valve amplifiers. They all serve their purpose. I will be purchasing the Mytek Brooklyn amplifier in the coming months just to add another dimension to my equipment. I will judge it on it's own merits and will use my ears as the ultimate judge.

Audiophiles have to decide when to call "When". Newer doesn't mean better, just newer.

Apologies for this long winded response to the pascal/Ncore question. I hope some of you can take something away from this and have another perspective.
 

Phorize

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I'm a big fan of both Puri-Fi and Pascal (modded by Mytek). They both have their place. Puri-Fi is still a little exotic and pricey not that the Mytek amps with PASCAL aren't. There is such a thing as equipment matching and personal preference. For instance what sounds great on electronic music, 70's/80's pop music, Jazz music might not sound as good with say a full orchestral piece of music with an equally good player, cartridge, and phonostage. All Class D amplifiers are in fact PWM switching amplifiers. They are all subject to EMI and RFI. One company I work with has gone as far as purchase paint from NASA that all but eliminates EMI leakage within their amplifiers power supply and yes, you can hear the difference when you visit their showroom where they have coated and uncoated side by side. Will you in fact notice this when you bring your new equipment home? I doubt it. But you will definitely hear a difference in circuit design and implementation by various brands. To call one cool, and the other warm is ultimately subjective. If you like one, then that's the component for you. If you prefer the other, then you again have your answer.

So I again stress that it all depends on your specific application and needs. Is your room the perfect listening room? This doesn't mean having an anechoic chamber for a listening room. You probably want to have some reflections in your listening room just like a small concert venue. Just make sure you eliminate ringing in your room. Clap your hands in the centre of your room, if it rings, then you need to sort that out.

You can purchase EMI shielding films from several companies and if you don't believe in the efficacy, you can buy just a roll of tape that is 10mm wide by however long it is, apply a strip above and below your speaker terminals on your speaker making sure you don't let the tape touch the positive and negative terminals shorting them out. The tiny strip of EMI absorbing tape will make a shocking difference to what you hear. Obviously power going through cables will create a field of electrons, the tape will minimize this radiation. With Class D, switching PWM amplifiers you will have heaps of EMI if not designed properly. Will you hear it? Yes if you have another device to run an a/b test at the same output level. Will you like one over the other? Yes you will. Is one correct and the other incorrect? That is something that I think is best left to the user.

Class-D has come a long, long way. And the newer it is, somehow the better it seems. We hear things like slew rates with our ears, even though most op-amps discrete or otherwise have numbers below what is considered audible. Slew rate I would argue is more important than distortion ratings. Damping factor is something that is highly debatable based on your exact speaker. Some like high damping factors, some other speakers definitely do not. There's no singular correct answer.

I have several class-D amplifiers and 2 valve amplifiers. They all serve their purpose. I will be purchasing the Mytek Brooklyn amplifier in the coming months just to add another dimension to my equipment. I will judge it on it's own merits and will use my ears as the ultimate judge.

Audiophiles have to decide when to call "When". Newer doesn't mean better, just newer.

Apologies for this long winded response to the pascal/Ncore question. I hope some of you can take something away from this and have another perspective.
Are you saying that competently designed amplifiers of similar key specifications around power/distortion etc have a sound and can be distinguished from each other by listening?
 

jokan

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Are you saying that competently designed amplifiers of similar key specifications around power/distortion etc have a sound and can be distinguished from each other by listening?

Yes, I believe you can most definitely hear an audible difference under a controlled environment.
Using the identical cables, source, level matching, and even placement of the electronic components, you should be able to hear a difference however slight it is. I'm not going to say it's going to be huge unless you are comparing say a SPEC Corp Class D amplifier to any other Class D amplifier at which point you will hear a huge difference. One of the things that I've noticed is that often times I've seen loudspeakers that are highly efficient as in 100db/watt range efficient mated to a class D amplifier isn't the best match. This can work but it will be a challenge. Amplifiers today simply are not designed for ultra high efficiency speakers. Those high efficiency speakers are from an era of single ended tube amplifiers with little to no damping factor. So they have loose bass to begin with. The enclosures are designed to compensate and help control those vibrations. Everything in the audio world has its proper place. As much as I love a Class D amplifier with 1000 or so damping factor, a few of my speakers don't like that much damping factor. They're happier below 300. Damping factor and loudspeaker design go hand in hand with amplifier design. Chances are that a high efficiency, 15" or greater woofer + horn tweeter isn't going to sound great with any Class-D amplifier. It would probably sound far better with a 10-30 watt tube amplifier. Most loudspeakers today have a mid to high 80db/watt efficiency. They run stiff suspension in their drivers (spider), stiff rolled surrounds, lightweight cones to compensate but the motor assembly is resistant to movement. Hence the punchy bass that modern speakers can deliver when playing Trentmoller. The modern speaker wants power to sound it's best. Therefore any difference in amplifier architecture will sound different. Unless you are specifically talking about a pre-built, OEM class d amp like an ICEPower, or OEM Pascal, or Hypex or N-Core, even the Puri-Fi. Unless you modify the OEM with some creative engineering, you will likely only notice the difference in generations of class D. And you will have your preference.

I'm saying that all of this is perfectly okay and not something to compete about spec for spec. Each application is different. The key is to figure out what best matches your gear. To figure out which equipment favours your equipment it's going to be a bit of trial and error along with your personal preference. There is no "wrong" answer. Unless you're trying to power Magico loudspeakers with a 5watt/channel tube amplifier! The crossover alone would eat most of that output power.

Cheers,
I hope I was able to help clarify some of my earlier statements. I stand by them 100%. If you've ever played around with different Mains Cables, you'll be surprised and shocked at how big a difference they make. I'm currently using solid core, 10 gauge virgin copper cable that is 99.9999 or six-nine purity. The plugs and socket are NOT gold plated, they are High purity Copper plated brass, the cable is cryo'd along with the sockets and plugs. A good cable takes away the salt and pepper. You only hear the components within whatever equipment it is connected to. Every single thing in the audio/power chain makes a difference, not on paper, but definitely to the human ear. Electrical engineers hate me most of the time because of what I have to say. But once they hear the differences with cables, they become converts with no understanding of why things sounded different. Sound and what you like is personal so there really isn't a right answer. There is in circuit design, circuit layout, shielding of components.
Happy listening!
 
OP
Lord Victor

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Aaand you lost me... I find potential sonic differences in amplifiers (competently designed or otherwise) should a be a pretty well documented topic at this point, potentially even DACs, considering the AES documentation showing that even OP Amps alone can audibly alter sound, never mind the full circuit they’re integrated in - so I hope no one is clutching their pearls at thatat this point, even if we contend such differences are small enough to generally be ignored/not noticed by most, rather than the exaggerated/hyperbolic differences sometimes described for the sake of ease of communication.
However when we get into audible differences in power cables I’m going to step away and ask for any inkling of proof. I know well respected acoustic engineers who swear by power cables mattering, but so far I’ve personally heard nothing to suggest such, having experimented with it, and I’ve seen no evidence for it either - at least with fx. Speaker cables multiple peoples measurements (not peer reviewed etc, but it at least lends more credence than pure anecdote) have shown repeatable differences big enough to be theoretically audible... no such thing with any other system cabling that I’m aware of.

Not to mention it’s completely off topic and just calls the rest of the statements made into question.

But otherwise interesting information.
 

BDWoody

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If you've ever played around with different Mains Cables, you'll be surprised and shocked...

I did that when I was a kid...scared the shit out of me.

I'd be equally shocked if anyone could pick out one competent power cord over another in any properly controlled listening test.
 
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