• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required as is 20 years of participation in forums (not all true). There are daily reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Purifi vs Hypex vs ICEPower

S-unny

Member
Joined
Jan 1, 2022
Messages
47
Likes
4
Holo Audio Spring 3 looks like a nice piece of kit, but it will be pricier then Pontus + Pseparate preamp. Besides, I think that there is a sense in going the route of having individual units doing individual tasks. Thus separate DAC, separate PreAMP, separate PoweAMP. Besides it would give you more flexibility of mix'n'matching different components and more resilience in case one of the componetns breaks down.

So with regards to the PowerAmp I decided to go the Purifi way, but in a bi-amping setup. So ordered 4 channel "PURIFI MULTICHANNEL AMPLIFIER" from Apollon Audio.

The plan is to have (Pontus or Venus) DAC >>> Hades PreAmp >>> Purifi 4-channel amp
That's lovely
My conundrum actually comes from my desire to go separates as well ! Initially my intention was to merely work with integrates for Amplifiers and then that would be an easy match to the Denafrips DAC's.

However, I have been reading wonderful things about the Purifi Amplifiers and wish to explore trials with them - and the two shops in the US {vtvamplifier and buckeyeamp} build Amps with the Purifi module, but to the best of my knowledge do not include the Pre-Amps. Hence i am a bit stuck

Do you have experience with the Bluesound node 2 ? Apparently it has pre-amp functionality built-in
Also, did you get a chance to listed to Tarun's review on the Denafrips Hades & Thallo review ? which is nudging me to perhaps explore the next leg up that chain with Athena + Apollo
 
OP
K

kovaga

Member
Joined
Jan 15, 2022
Messages
10
Likes
10
That's lovely
My conundrum actually comes from my desire to go separates as well ! Initially my intention was to merely work with integrates for Amplifiers and then that would be an easy match to the Denafrips DAC's.

However, I have been reading wonderful things about the Purifi Amplifiers and wish to explore trials with them - and the two shops in the US {vtvamplifier and buckeyeamp} build Amps with the Purifi module, but to the best of my knowledge do not include the Pre-Amps. Hence i am a bit stuck

Do you have experience with the Bluesound node 2 ? Apparently it has pre-amp functionality built-in
Also, did you get a chance to listed to Tarun's review on the Denafrips Hades & Thallo review ? which is nudging me to perhaps explore the next leg up that chain with Athena + Apollo
No, never tried Bluesound. as a streamer i run a pretty simple setup of Rpi4. I was running volumio for a long time, but after the recent upgrade switched to pure ubuntu running MPD, thus I can control it from any device that ha a gui client, as well as from the console of my linux desktop where I sepnd most of my time working :)

With reagrds to Athena, it is definetely a possibility, but I woubt the sound difference would be noticeable. Besides it has far to many inputs for my use :) I would imagine this money would be better invested into DAC next level up :)
 

S-unny

Member
Joined
Jan 1, 2022
Messages
47
Likes
4
No, never tried Bluesound. as a streamer i run a pretty simple setup of Rpi4. I was running volumio for a long time, but after the recent upgrade switched to pure ubuntu running MPD, thus I can control it from any device that ha a gui client, as well as from the console of my linux desktop where I sepnd most of my time working :)

With reagrds to Athena, it is definetely a possibility, but I woubt the sound difference would be noticeable. Besides it has far to many inputs for my use :) I would imagine this money would be better invested into DAC next level up :)
I called and chatted with Alvin @ Vinshine audio. Here are a few things I learnt

- DAC : Pontus or Venus ? He suggested for my speaker pairs {dynaudio heritage specials} the Venus is a better match in that I am less likely to outgrow the Dac and that the speakers are more likely to reveal the capabilities of the higher grade Venus. At about +1k USD over the Pontus I have some digesting & thinking to do

- Pre Amp: Hades or Athena ? This discussion got interesting because I shared the feedback generated by Tarun. I raised couple of issue
(1) Tarun suggests that the volume knob on the Hades could be pushed into 50s where 60 is the max on the Hades ! Alvin says it is important to find the right amplifier to match the Pre Amp. Specifically look for amplifier gains in excess of 20 dB otherwise the match will not be good ! Even some Pass Lab Amps will not meet muster here & also a currently popular tube Amp, Willsenton R8 does not play well with these Pre Amps
(2) Denafrip Amps may require a burn in time ~300 hrs ! I dont understand what it is in the mechanism/design that requires so much time to settle. With loudspeakers perhaps the cones/drivers and the restoring forces take time to groove in. However, with mere electronic circuitry as in the Pre-Amps I cannot understand how and where the extra run time comes in. Perhaps this is more ignorance on my part.
The above 2 points have thrown me off a bit because I don't want to be limited in my amplifier selection based on the pre-amp I choose.
 

MaxBuck

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
May 22, 2021
Messages
1,101
Likes
1,418
Location
SoCal, Baby!
I called and chatted with Alvin @ Vinshine audio. Here are a few things I learnt

- DAC : Pontus or Venus ? He suggested for my speaker pairs {dynaudio heritage specials} the Venus is a better match in that I am less likely to outgrow the Dac and that the speakers are more likely to reveal the capabilities of the higher grade Venus. At about +1k USD over the Pontus I have some digesting & thinking to do

- Pre Amp: Hades or Athena ? This discussion got interesting because I shared the feedback generated by Tarun. I raised couple of issue
(1) Tarun suggests that the volume knob on the Hades could be pushed into 50s where 60 is the max on the Hades ! Alvin says it is important to find the right amplifier to match the Pre Amp. Specifically look for amplifier gains in excess of 20 dB otherwise the match will not be good ! Even some Pass Lab Amps will not meet muster here & also a currently popular tube Amp, Willsenton R8 does not play well with these Pre Amps
(2) Denafrip Amps may require a burn in time ~300 hrs ! I dont understand what it is in the mechanism/design that requires so much time to settle. With loudspeakers perhaps the cones/drivers and the restoring forces take time to groove in. However, with mere electronic circuitry as in the Pre-Amps I cannot understand how and where the extra run time comes in. Perhaps this is more ignorance on my part.
The above 2 points have thrown me off a bit because I don't want to be limited in my amplifier selection based on the pre-amp I choose.
What you "learnt" is a pack of nonsense. I hope you come to realize that.
  1. Once you have a transparent DAC (which the Ares is, as are many less expensive DACs), there's no "revealing of additional capabilities" that any speaker will accomplish.
  2. Burn-in time is fiction.
 

S-unny

Member
Joined
Jan 1, 2022
Messages
47
Likes
4
What you "learnt" is a pack of nonsense. I hope you come to realize that.
  1. Once you have a transparent DAC (which the Ares is, as are many less expensive DACs), there's no "revealing of additional capabilities" that any speaker will accomplish.
  2. Burn-in time is fiction.
Can you share some knowledge about : For Pre Amps with unity gain {Denafrips Hades, Athena here} what are the challenges/requirements they pose on interfacing with Amplifiers ? thx
 

mdsimon2

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Oct 20, 2020
Messages
1,549
Likes
1,941
Location
Detroit, MI
Can you share some knowledge about : For Pre Amps with unity gain {Denafrips Hades, Athena here} what are the challenges/requirements they pose on interfacing with Amplifiers ? thx

Other than the obvious point of making sure your source has enough output voltage to drive your amplifier to full power (because your preamp will add no additional gain), nothing.

Michael
 

Dclone

Member
Joined
Apr 30, 2020
Messages
51
Likes
45
I have spoken to Trebor from Apollon and he highly recommends going for bi-amp option with a pure 4 amp.
That those speakers would benefit much more from 4x purifi 1et400a, then 2x purifi 1et400a with sparkos OpAmp. If not, then the more powerful Hypex NC1200 would do a better job driving them.

Anyone here bi-amps?
Well, I do. Bi-amp, Tri-amp and in one 2 channel setup, Quad-amp. Not with class D yet. Solely with class A poweramps. Sounds really amazing and gives obscene high current/effect for driving ”harddriven” speakers. The best is that You can play really low without missing a single Hz in Audible spectra. Highly recommended!
 

Holmz

Major Contributor
Joined
Oct 3, 2021
Messages
1,275
Likes
758
Location
Australia
Well, I do. Bi-amp, Tri-amp and in one 2 channel setup, Quad-amp. Not with class D yet. Solely with class A poweramps. Sounds really amazing and gives obscene high current/effect for driving ”harddriven” speakers. The best is that You can play really low without missing a single Hz in Audible spectra. Highly recommended!

How are you doing the active XO part?
- Solder and op-amps
- DSP
- S/W

??
 

DanielF

New Member
Joined
Mar 19, 2022
Messages
1
Likes
1
I suspect people often overestimate the power they require -- of course it does depend on room and furnishing, speaker sensitivity, and listening habits.

See ... Crown Audio's Amplifier Power Required calculator. Note the calc is for a single speaker in an anechoic chamber; stereo speakers will reduce the power req't by 6 dB and typical room echos by another 3 dB.
I came upon this thread because I'm looking at acquiring some class-D amps to revamp my hi-fi system. I just wanted to 'correct' (?) the impression one might get from using the Crown Audio's Amplifier Power Required calculator that Gorgonzola kindly linked. That calculator appears to makes no provision for human hearing characteristics, in particular the 'Equal loudness contours'.
Unless I'm sadly mistaken (quite possible!), if we want an 80dB SPL at our listening position 3m from the mono speaker whose sensitivity is 90dB, to get the equivalent 'loudness' at 50Hz (compared to 80dB @ 1kHz), the amplifier power would need to be about 25dB higher than the watts calculated by the calculator (which I assume is based on a 1kHz 'reference').
So for me to 'perceive' the same 'loudness' at 50Hz compared to 80dB @ 1kHz, I would need 568W rather than the 2W that calculator tells me I need.
So my take on all this is that it is hardly possible to overestimate how much power you need – affordable amplifiers will almost never provide enough! My experience bears this out, with my 100Wrms 4-channel amplifier sometimes (rarely) tripping into overload when playing something with heaps of bass. Taking into account the extra 9dB I 'gain' from two speakers (actually, four) and room acoustics, my 100W amps are just enough (most of the time!).
 

Attachments

  • Equal-loudness_contours.png
    Equal-loudness_contours.png
    301.6 KB · Views: 47
F

freemansteve

Guest
You can't just say "Purifi vs Hypex etc"
These brands cover a variety of products in their portfolios, some being better than others.
You'd have to ask for comparisons of specific models.

Otherwise, without opening a heated debate, it's like saying Ford vs GM vs Fiat/Chrysler or whatever - I'm they they all have dogs in their range.
 

Ricardus

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 15, 2022
Messages
331
Likes
408
Location
NY State
I "built" an IcePower 200AC and 200ASD amp using an enclosure from Ghent audio, and am very happy. I really don't need anything more than this in my listening space. I think the OP said they're in Europe, so they probably won't want to go this route, but I got the modules at Parts Express. The Ghent enclosure is out of China. Very well made enclosure.
 

B&WTube

Member
Joined
Feb 17, 2020
Messages
87
Likes
97
What you "learnt" is a pack of nonsense. I hope you come to realize that.
  1. Once you have a transparent DAC (which the Ares is, as are many less expensive DACs), there's no "revealing of additional capabilities" that any speaker will accomplish.
  2. Burn-in time is fiction.
I think you might need do some blind AB testing, in the real world.
1.) Yes, there are differences. Listen to Rob Watts lectures on testing what is audible. It is staggeringly tiny what people are able to hear. It’s also obvious if you just blind test these I did 7 before settling in the D90, but it was against other DAC’s that you shouldn’t be able to tell the difference on- but you can. And it is somewhat scientific if 3 ppl and an AB switch.
2.) Expensive caps do take painfully long to burn in. I have no idea why- because it doesn’t make sense, but I have friends who have measured discharge rates and they change a little/get faster as time goes on. NOT all, but it is a measureable thing.

I really wish I had proof of all this, but I only discovered this site when I found my D90, and hadn’t gotten into it. However, if you talk to the engineers and ppl who design and build this stuff- the majority do test them, and they will all tell you that the measurements only get you so far. I wish that weren’t the case- but for now it is.

This site and your contributions are super valuable, for the commitment to science and measurable things. However, as long as proper blind A/B listening consistently reveals differences in gear that shouldn’t technically sound different- we don’t have the science totally figured out, so we have to some real world testing. I do hope we get there, cause the audio world will revolutionize for the good/affordable even more than what this site has already done.
 

B&WTube

Member
Joined
Feb 17, 2020
Messages
87
Likes
97
I have to disagree with you.

This site certainly is super valuable. My "contributions" are most definitely not.
Lol. I know the intent of your post was as guardrails, to keep us from sliding into subjectiveland. This site is really growing, with new converts, so it needs members doing that- so it is valuable.
I felt like a tool for posting that response (but you handled it with grace), but the issues this site sometimes seems to have is
1) Recognition that they are scientifically observable phenomena, that we just don’t know how to measure, or don’t know how to interpret existing data for, yet.
2) People who don’t build equipment and/or talk to people who do. Obviously, science and engineering are paramount, but all the great designers will tell you that they have designed what they thought would technically be the best, measured well, and for one reason or another sounded bad.
The reason I am a pain in the @** about it is that I want all of it to be measured and understood. However, as long it’s not fully recognized that we need to keep working on measuring and interpreting results to improve our understandings of audible correlations, to designs- we aren’t going to figure it out. Thus, I carry my soapbox.
 

S-unny

Member
Joined
Jan 1, 2022
Messages
47
Likes
4
I think you might need do some blind AB testing, in the real world.
1.) Yes, there are differences. Listen to Rob Watts lectures on testing what is audible. It is staggeringly tiny what people are able to hear. It’s also obvious if you just blind test these I did 7 before settling in the D90, but it was against other DAC’s that you shouldn’t be able to tell the difference on- but you can. And it is somewhat scientific if 3 ppl and an AB switch.
2.) Expensive caps do take painfully long to burn in. I have no idea why- because it doesn’t make sense, but I have friends who have measured discharge rates and they change a little/get faster as time goes on. NOT all, but it is a measureable thing.

I really wish I had proof of all this, but I only discovered this site when I found my D90, and hadn’t gotten into it. However, if you talk to the engineers and ppl who design and build this stuff- the majority do test them, and they will all tell you that the measurements only get you so far. I wish that weren’t the case- but for now it is.

This site and your contributions are super valuable, for the commitment to science and measurable things. However, as long as proper blind A/B listening consistently reveals differences in gear that shouldn’t technically sound different- we don’t have the science totally figured out, so we have to some real world testing. I do hope we get there, cause the audio world will revolutionize for the good/affordable even more than what this site has already done.
Very will spoken. If I may inquire what kind of AB switch did you use ? I am yet to introduce an external DAC in my system and do want to have capability to evaluate multiple dacs. I have been looking at some options on Amazon, so wanted to inquire what kind of switch your research led you to . Thankyou.
 

B&WTube

Member
Joined
Feb 17, 2020
Messages
87
Likes
97
Very will spoken. If I may inquire what kind of AB switch did you use ? I am yet to introduce an external DAC in my system and do want to have capability to evaluate multiple dacs. I have been looking at some options on Amazon, so wanted to inquire what kind of switch your research led you to . Thankyou.
I used an Amazon USB switch, but it is nothing fancy- maybe had 'green' in the name. I think most are fine, as long as it's not total junk. I will say, I have seen some with remotes (mine has a button)- and that seems super handy if you are just A/B'ing by yourself (so you don't have to move from listening position or sit super close).
For XLR, I like the Nobsound Little Bear.
 
F

freemansteve

Guest
What really makes a class D amplifier run more or less cool is idling losses.

I would think that 'running cool' is a function of energy dissipated in the box - its temperature will relate to power-in divided by power-out (efficiency). But yes, some designs do use a lot of energy when not doing a lot, let alone at max vol....

I would think any Class-D is going to be pretty efficient compared with other common designs.
 
Top Bottom