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PURIFI finally did a fully purified passive speaker design! The SPK 16 prototype is here - with a PTT tweeter

sounds like you had measuremented this tweeter, i remember you had a project about peerless CD with a big wave guide ,this both about DI control, but purifi's is smaller and look like a usually room setting speakers , which one would you choice if budget not a question?

A few of us over at DIYAudio have collaborated for small studies about directivity and distortion, after I noticed some discrepancies in published data available in the wild.

As a person trained in science, I try not to consider budget, I consider application requirements first.
Does the system need to play to <3 persons, 30 persons or 300 people or 30,000 people?
What is the venue? Indoor home (Japan, Europe, or Australia) or outdoors and at what distance?
Are the listener(s) at 3ft, 10ft, 30ft or 300ft?

These are what determine the SPL and directivity requirements and whether you want a device with narrow directivity like this:
+/- 40° narrowing out to +/-30°

1738798350281.png


More details: https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/directivity-study-polar-maps-of-hf-mf-and-lf-drivers-in-cabinets.409660/

Optimizing the directivity is one thing, but most drivers also have SPL limits. By looking at the distortion mechanisms more closely, what Lars and Carsten have done is reduce driver's distortion and thus give it an increased of dynamic range of (~6-10dB)


eg. TWO 6.5" woofers, monopole bass under 100Hz, TWO 6.5" woofers, cardioid from 100Hz to ~400Hz:
1738804218019.png


1738804249805.png




ONE 6.5" woofer, covering ~40Hz - ~2.4K Hz; and TWO passive radiators, covering <40 Hz

1738804333347.png


1738804353403.png



Some people feel that distortion doesn't matter. What is becoming increasingly evident to me is that it translates to increased dynamic range.

IMHO:
Lower distortion <=> Higher dynamic range -> clean, effortless, no listening fatigue...


At some point the CFO (wife) and marketing (family, friends, colleagues) start the pricing queries... The production manager (cabinet maker) never wants to listen to my ideas; the changes always seem to result in more complicated work...
 
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For sure less distortion in the lower frequencies sounds different, and also for me and my wife less fatigueing yet more dynamical. Reminds me of image processing where removing noise etc lead perceptually to more dynamic/clear/livelike printed image. This whilsth the technical dynamic range (from darkest to lightest) is the same. ( i used to be a fine art printer gettingvthe maximum out of the printer and paper combo.)
One aspect i also learned it the smoothness of going from black to white, one of the reasons why f.e. Caravagio and Rembrandt paintings have perceptually this extra appearance.
 
For my next hifi DIY project I have been planning to go all out into Purifi in a 8+4+1 configuration, and it's nice to see there is now a tweeter with wave guide, which saves a lot of trouble in finding a suitable one.

If going active and wishing to use Purifi amps, they will cost 3-4 times more than the speaker drivers. And in plateamps there is only one plausible option for highest quality amplification and it's not Purifi ;)
 
I can't wait, only other dome I know that does this is the one on the behringer 2030p, constant all the way to the top. I'm kinda curious why no other company (afaik) has managed this. Plenty of well controlled stuff out there but it's narrow.
If you want constant but wide ... try Bliesma T25A. Off axis sound feels "unreal" when you are used to normal tweeters.
 
For my next hifi DIY project I have been planning to go all out into Purifi in a 8+4+1 configuration, and it's nice to see there is now a tweeter with wave guide, which saves a lot of trouble in finding a suitable one.

If going active and wishing to use Purifi amps, they will cost 3-4 times more than the speaker drivers. And in plateamps there is only one plausible option for highest quality amplification and it's not Purifi ;)
You can start with a Hypex module to get the speaker up and running and work on optimised amplification later on?
But as you stated it get's expensive quickly, the bottle neck is the D/A conversion with these amps. You can improve 5-6dB compared to the Hypex with a better DSP+converter. This is interesting when you have a high sensitivity driver and low listening distance (e.g. 3" midrange and 1m listening distance - you hear the hiss of the Hypex module in a silent room). For a normal HiFi Setup the noise and THD of the Hypex is already under ear detection level. (btw - I prefer the digital input on the Hypex)
 
You can start with a Hypex module to get the speaker up and running and work on optimised amplification later on?
But as you stated it get's expensive quickly, the bottle neck is the D/A conversion with these amps. You can improve 5-6dB compared to the Hypex with a better DSP+converter. This is interesting when you have a high sensitivity driver and low listening distance (e.g. 3" midrange and 1m listening distance - you hear the hiss of the Hypex module in a silent room). For a normal HiFi Setup the noise and THD of the Hypex is already under ear detection level. (btw - I prefer the digital input on the Hypex)
Yes, my current setup uses a 110 dB/W/m CD+horn with Hypex FusionAmp, all digitally connected, so I'm familiar with it. It's good, but those NCxxxMP modules are not as good as NC400 modules, so there is room for improvement. Anyway I was hoping Purifi people would release their own plateamp. And because we don't need 450 Watts for a tweeter, multi-way plateamps should be more attractively priced than all separates. The FusionAmps are actually cheap, considering to how good and versatile they are.
 
@Lars Risbo

Am hoping to return speaker builds soon. With a 104 mm option, Directiva r1's DXT could be replaced with your new tweeter and tested by Amir.

Are you ready to share pricing and availability?
 
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For my next hifi DIY project I have been planning to go all out into Purifi in a 8+4+1 configuration, and it's nice to see there is now a tweeter with wave guide, which saves a lot of trouble in finding a suitable one.

If going active and wishing to use Purifi amps, they will cost 3-4 times more than the speaker drivers. And in plateamps there is only one plausible option for highest quality amplification and it's not Purifi ;)
Is what i have wwmt 8 4 1, with purifi amps.
Very pleased, no returning back to passive.
The tweeter is an sb26adc with 104mm waveguide, as an upgrade path to the purifi tweeter. It works, eager to find out the differences.
 
Yes, my current setup uses a 110 dB/W/m CD+horn with Hypex FusionAmp, all digitally connected, so I'm familiar with it. It's good, but those NCxxxMP modules are not as good as NC400 modules, so there is room for improvement. Anyway I was hoping Purifi people would release their own plateamp. And because we don't need 450 Watts for a tweeter, multi-way plateamps should be more attractively priced than all separates. The FusionAmps are actually cheap, considering to how good and versatile they are.
The bottle neck in the plates is the D/A converter, not the amps. So it would not make sense to use better amp modules until they upgrade the converters (which will not happen as far as they told me). The 100W channel of the 3-way has a little lower noise btw. (I did some measuring and modifying of these modules).
You get a lot for your money with these - but it's also plenty of money for most projects.
 
One of the "problems" with measurements of Purifi drivers is that they are beyond many microphones/environment's ability to characterize them*

The Klippel Near Field Scanner provides anechoic frequency response measurements in 360°, for an automated generation of CTA2034A charts, among other things.

However, for harmonic measurements, they are non-anechoic. Here is an example of an non-anechoic measurement at 2 different levels:

1739424904808.png

Let's have a look at the graphs are presented for harmonic distortion- linearly from 0 to 5%, with 0.5% major divisions, and 0.1% minor divisions:

1739424996985.png


In relative terms, this is good tweeter performance, compared to other speakers that have been measured at ASR.

To measure the harmonics of the Purifi tweeter, however, one needs to measure 20dB lower...down to 0dB
To characterize the 2nd to 5th harmonics of the Purifi tweeter, the scales of the distortion charts need to be modified; from 0.01% (-100dB) to 1% (-40dB)

It's not clear if Amir is able to measure down to 0dB...
 
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IMD is probably still more important though? And currently it's still measurable easily with 2 ways still showing some more IMD in the mids despite the excellent Purifi woofer performance for 2 ways. (Other bigger or three way speakers show less IMD in some cases)
 
"Launching now"

so that was a lie






just teasin ya guys.
 
@Lars Risbo

Am hoping to return speaker builds soon. With a 104 mm option, Directiva r1's DXT could be replaced with your new tweeter and tested by Amir.

Are you ready to share pricing and availability?
sounds great! we are ramping up the production and working through the early bird wait list. after that and we have a stable reduction then we release it to our web shop and resellers. I need to ask my colleagues about pricing.
 
IMD is probably still more important though? And currently it's still measurable easily with 2 ways still showing some more IMD in the mids despite the excellent Purifi woofer performance for 2 ways. (Other bigger or three way speakers show less IMD in some cases)

One can always reduce IMD by making more-ways Eg. 4 way etc, but there are other trade-offs of course. Whether IMD or HD or (other Eg. GedLee metric or FSAF residual) is better correlated with _insert favourite subjective impression here_ is certainly interesting, but the discussion of IMD and HD is probably best left for another thread.

My sentiment re: the previous post is that the standard ASR review process, as of Feb 2025, may not be able to distinguish the PTT 1.3” tweeter from other tweeters due to test setup conditions, namely noise floor in non-anechoic conditions

To be clear, I’m not singling out ASR.
Erins Audio Corner, the industry periodical Voice Coil, have similar (but slightly different ) difficulties challenges.
 
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@Lars Risbo : Hi Lars, I know the new tweeter in Purifi is not out there yet, but I would like to know some information:
1. What is the maximum power handling of this tweeter using 2nd-order Butterworth high pass filter at 1000 Hz. I know the standard filter for tweeter is 2000 Hz, but crossing the tweeter below 2 kHz to mate with 6.5" or 8" woofer is also a norm now, so some information about this subject is valuable.
2. What is maximum SPL this tweeter can achieve at 1m distance with respect to 10% THD, with 2nd-order Butterworth high pass filter at 1000 Hz and/or 2000 Hz. I am building a center speaker and now consider both dome tweeters and compression drivers (CD). Generally CD is better than most dome tweeters in that area, but I wonder if Purifi's tweeter can minimize that.
 
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One can always reduce IMD by making more-ways Eg. 4 way etc, but there are other trade-offs of course. Whether IMD or HD or (other Eg. GedLee metric or FSAF residual) is better correlated with _insert favourite subjective impression here_ is certainly interesting, but the discussion of IMD and HD is probably best left for another thread.

My sentiment re: the previous post is that the standard ASR review process, as of Feb 2025, may not be able to distinguish the PTT 1.3” tweeter from other tweeters due to test setup conditions, namely noise floor in non-anechoic conditions

To be clear, I’m not singling out ASR.
Erins Audio Corner, the industry periodical Voice Coil, have similar (but slightly different ) difficulties challenges.
ASR measurements of a speaker with this tweeter may not fully disclose all benefits of this tweeter but would still show the low distortion on high output, better power response and directivity from lower crossover point and better high frequency dispersion. That's already a lot of areas of improvement over other designs.
 
Good questions. Challenging and long to answer, and perhaps not satisfactory to most readers.

Let's start off with the easy one:

1. Max power handling depends on the test signal standard and how it's applied. For decades it was mainly a test of durability, using pink noise, and implemented with a filter to protect the driver. As usual, with standards, there is never one standard.

IEC RMS power handling (IEC 268-5, cl 18.4 Rated noise test) – 100 hours(!) continuously, with an IEC shaped pink noise signal. Typically gives the lowest, worse case scenario value
IEC Long Term Power Handling – signal for one minute and pause for 2 min, 10 times alternating. Total test time is 28 min. (IEC 268-5, cl 18.2)
IEC Short Term Power Handling – signal for one second and pause for 1 min, repeat for 60 times. Total test time one hour. (IEC 268-5, cl 18.1)

AES (1984) Power handling= voltage ^2 / Zmin, using Pink noise signal with crest factor 2; bandpass filtered at 12dB per octave with Butterworth filter response as specified by manufacturer. The rated power of the device shall be that power the device can withstand for 2 hours without permanent change in acoustical, mechanical, or electrical characteristics greater than 10%.
AES Music program - twice the continuous AES power rating.

With an arbitrary high pass of a frequency eg. 2000, 1000Hz, the manufacturer must be willing to push the unit within an inch of it's life... well, because, that is what the old standards require. ie. 100 hours or 2 hours of continuous pink noises, without permanent damage

You can see where the challenges lay. You (or I) do not have much interest in how much power it can handle. What we're really interested in is how loudly it can play, cleanly, at say 1m, so we can makes educated estimates for our intended application eg. centre speaker for cinema speaker. The power handling is just a proxy.

But music is very dynamic, and whilst these pink noise signals may be useful stress tests for drive units, it will under-rate the maximum SPL with music or speech, which is what listeners are most interested in.

An emerging standard is the AES75-2023. This uses Music-Noise; which is a noise signal that more closely emulates the dynamic characteristics of music:

1739775458968.png

Reference: https://audioxpress.com/news/meyer-...l-for-real-world-loudspeaker-spl-measurements

With the Purifi tweeter not yet in mass production, I'm not certain we'll know, in the short term, what the maximum long term power handling is. And even if we did, it doesn't fully answer your question of the maximum SPL with real music content.

Some testers perform successive sine sweeps, from 76dB, then 86 dB, then 96 dB, then 102dB etc. This is one method. The downside is that each sweep takes 3 secs; which means a total of 12 seconds of sine wave stress testing. It may exhibit reduced output at the final test, but is representative of compression of real music?

It’s a quandry!

References:
* https://www.aes.org/standards/AES75/


2. It is an assumption to say that "better power response and directivity from lower crossover point and better high frequency dispersion. That's already a lot of areas of improvement over other designs"


In the original patent granted to Dr. Sean Olive 20 years ago the power response is used only in relation to determining the low frequency extension.

What was found to be important (with a correlation of 0.86 with 13 loudspeakers in mono, in their listening room, and 0.7 when applied to the 70 loudspeakers) was the lack of resonances in the on-axis response, lack of resonances in the predicted in-room response, the bass extension and the smoothness of the predicted in room response.
(bold: my emphasis)

More specifically:

Preference Rating=12.69 - 2.49*NBD_ON - 2.99*NBD_PIR - 4.31*LFX - 2.32*SM_PIR

where-
NBD: Average Narrow Band Deviation in each 1/2-octave band from 100 Hz-12 kHz
ON: On-axis
PIR: Predicted in-room response
LFX: Low frequency extension (Hz) based on -6dB frequency point transformed to log; applied to sound power relative to mean sensitivity in listening window from 300 Hz - 10 kHz
SM: Smoothness; (r) in amplitude response based on a linear regression line through 100 Hz-16kHz


In fact, having a lower crossover point often has the opposite effect of enabling a smooth predicted in-room response, but that is another topic for another day.

For a dome tweeter, the directivity depends on the interaction with nearby surroundings, such as a phase shield, structures abutting the dome, adjacent surfaces which may act as a waveguide or horn, as well as further a field like the cabinet dimensions and shape.

Now let us look at the Directiva ASR, a great community project headed by @RickS with the Purifi 6.5” midwoofer, and SEAS DXT tweeter.
Hats off to @amirm for showing these graphs for all us to view:

1739717759917.png


When normalized to the on-axis response, as shown above, helps clarify how well the speaker will respond to equalization.
(bold: my emphasis)

Another view is shown below, using the exact data offered by ASR, except not-normalized. Thank you @pierre
(Despite the legend on the right Y axis starting from 0 and going down to -30 dB this only used internally to compare to OTHER speakers)

This shows speaker's actual directivity, in the horizontal plane, anechoically, without EQ.

1739756423029.png
Directivity is complex. If I had to put this into words, I would say it displays omni-polar characteristics from 100Hz to 200Hz; from about 400Hz to 700Hz about a -6dB beam-width of +/- 110°, and then from 800Hz to 5KHz +/-60°, narrowing to +/-50° around 7KHz and then +/- 40° at 18KHz.

If the reader is lost at this point, the computed average for the -6dB beamwidth is +/-60° from 100Hz to 10KHz.

Reference: https://www.spinorama.org/speakers/ASR Directiva Open Source Speaker/ASR/index_asr.html

For completeness, I will quickly show the distortion of the Directiva.

1739761640440.png


Looking at the tweeter- At 86dB, H2 from the tweeter are barely visible at 86dB.
At 96dB, H2 from the tweeter is around 40dB. H3 is skirting around 20dB.

Reference: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...r-directiva-open-source-speaker-review.27094/

We must remember that in Floyd’s ground breaking research, it was clear that how a speaker appears affected a listener’s assessment. In short, "in sighted listening evaluations, what we "hear" is related to more than just the sounds arriving at the ear"

To control for these biases, these tests were double blinded. In addition, listening tests were done in mono, as listeners were found to be more discriminatory in mono listening tests, Vs stereo or multichannel.

Sean acknowledged some limitations of the study, which was mainly conducted in one good room. And although double blinded testing of 3 very good speakers in 3 differently shaped/sized rooms showed that they were performed similarly on listening tests, it must be noted that all 3 rooms had reverberation times of about 0.4s (+/- 0.1 sec) (an IEC room has RT 0.3sec)

He hypothesized that, for instance, in a very damped room, the direct sound may be more important to listener preferences. In a more reverberant room the predicted in-room response may have a higher weighting in indicating listener preferences

References:


The challenge for reviewers is very real-
1. It is impractical (?impossible) for reviewers to do unsighted listening.
2. How is their listening room different to your listening room? What is the reverberation time of their room, and what is the the reverberation time of your room?
3. If they are listening in mono (and thus more discriminatory), but when you buy a pair in stereo, would this mean you are less discriminatory in your listening (ie. good speaker -> great speaker, or worse “I can't hear much difference to what I already have ). The evidence suggests that we, as human, may very well limited in our assessment in non-mono.


So to answer the question- is a speaker with a tweeter with a wide and constant directivity of ~ +/- 70° degrees horizontally a benefit, (or hindrance) in a sighted, mono test?

Whatever benefit (or hindrance) of a stereo pair of speakers, that has ultra low distortion, and a wide constant -6dB beam-width of +/- 70° horizontally, has not yet been ascertained.

We may be in uncharted territory here.


Appendix/further reading-
More challengers for listeners and reviewers here:
 
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Whatever benefit (or hindrance) of a stereo pair of speakers, that has ultra low distortion, and a wide constant -6dB beam-width of +/- 70° horizontally, has not yet been ascertained.
A reminder to everybody: One quite self-evident property of narrow directivity is that the best listening spot is also narrow, while with wide directivity you can fit in a couch. All else being equal, a very narrow spot can sound better than wide spot, but then you are limited to solo listening. These are design choices that buyers/builders should be aware of.
 
We may be in uncharted territory here.
yes indeed and so far it seems like wonderful territory. I am completely blown away.

Thanks for your very elaborate, informative and thoughtful reply which I very much agreed with. The increased crest factor at high frequency is a good direction to match real music.

Power testing is tedious (100h is 100h) so typically the last spec we add to the data sheet. Our 2mm tall coil on a titanium former in a 4mm tall gap handles quite some power. stay tuned.

we have routinely reached 110dB/1m for short durations and distortion is still low (at least 3rd and up - 2nd order increases due to the nonlinearity of air)
 
A simple and crude first indication of power handling i use is to test at 2.8 Vrms with pink noise the rise in impedance and perhaps more important the speed of the rise. I did this thusfar on tweeters only.
The problem i find is the correlation with actual playing of music in living room.
This also because our hearing is non linear in varying loudness levels. Not that i am playing very loud normally.
I will include this test in my (to be opened) thread about my speakers. And also a statistic on loudness levels recorded at listening position/couch.
 
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