Purifi 1et400a monoblocks with Revel M126be?

[CDMC]

What do you mean within an inch of their life? If you EQ your speakers to solve the problems you stated, you are reducing their output in the frequency range that requires the most power. IE you are actually protecting them more.

I know very few rooms that are not purposely built that speakers can be ran without some sort of EQ. You will never be happy with any speaker purchase if you are unwilling to do even some basic EQ.

It took me years to realize and accept this. It was 20+ years of hearing how an equalizer will screw up the sound. Guess, what, an old fashioned graphic EQ will. A digital eq will not. Some of the best improvements in my system are as a result of being willing to eq in the digital domain. First try to optimize with setup and treatment, but the icing on the cake is the ability to equalize. A 2db adjustment here and there can transform the sound.

 

[Sparky]

Oh I am the same...I have been forced to change when my wife and I decided a few years ago that we literally have to have the cash in our bank to buy it. No credit cards, no loans, nothing besides cash for us now. Forces me to make the most out of what I have and really figure out what I don't like about it during the time I have to use it. Then, when I go to upgrade, I make a very informed decision about what I am trying to fix.

I have found with some proper EQ, you can really make some things sing!

Hmm. I wish I was as strong willed as you and your wife! In fact, my wife is extremely good with money....it's me that's the problem!

Agreed on the EQ aspect.

 

[Sparky]

I really have to go to bed as I'm up early for work...I'll reply properly tomorrow...... ZZZZZZZZZZZ

 

[CDMC]

I really wish I knew how to read the measurements the way you do and, more importantly, understand what I'm seeing.
The info you have provided is absolutely fantastic and I cannot thank you enough!
I agree with you as far as "brightness" is concerned, they are quite bright and revealing which I like but sometimes it can be a little jarring.

I think I've convinced myself that I need to make a change and I'm seriously looking into the Salk Sound Song3 or BMR.
You may think I'm being ridiculous in wanting to change my speakers especially seen as though they cost me a pretty penny but isn't buying new stuff half the fun of this game?

I'm going to run an Anthem Room Correction run this weekend to see what can be achieved as I only use the minidsp for my subs.

What speakers and set up do you use??

Looking at the information Jdunk54nl posted, I would pay attention to the following:

1) He shows a 12db high pass on your mains. You said you have a 24db high pass. Please go back and check your settings in Mini DSP and switch to a 24db oct high pass if it is not set that way.
2) Try importing his equalization into your mini dsp. I should make a large improvement.

 

[Davelemi]

You dragged a pair of Klipsch Forte III's into your living room and you're still alive to tell the tale! WOW!

I wanted the Conwalls, but I don't think they would have fit

 

[Davelemi]

AMEN. I never owned a very large home with extra "family rooms" and such so the living room was MY space, take it or leave it. A 22 x 14 x 9 room, I had the listening/viewing chair ruffly in the middle of the room, when it faced North down the long dimension it looked at my 2ch rig with Klipsch LaScala's and dual 7' tall HSU subwoofers with the gear shrine in the middle. When I swung the chair to the south, it faced my 35" Mitsubishi CRT TV and a 5.2 Paradigm surround speaker system that would also use the same HSU subwoofers, an Adcom HT pre/pro and Adcom GFA amps. It was a great little multich system in it's time. All that ended after my retirement in 2008 and my move to paradise in Central FL.
As B B King alway sang,
"as long as I'm payin the rent and the bills woman,
I'm payin the cost to be the boss"

That sounds like it was a great setup. What's interesting about my Forte(s) is my wife appreciates the volume of sound that comes out of them now that she can actually understand the dialogue in the shows she watches.

 

[Sparky]

Here is what I see:

• A cute child reading. I wish my son was that age again, enjoy it.
• You have optimized your placement options about as well as the room allows. What stands out to me is that no matter what you do your right speaker is going to be in a corner, which means extra bass reinforcement compounded by your listening location near the back wall. BUT, you have the tools to deal with this, a stepper high pass filter on your mains and ARC.
• Some of your forwardness in the midrange could be due to the first reflection on the side walls, especially the right speaker. Put a pillow at the first reflection point on the right and see what that does.
• Not sure if it is possible, but you might try also moving the left speaker to the other side of the doorway, the tv to the left a bit and the right speaker over a bit.

Like the others, I strongly encourage you to play with ARC and adjust your crossover settings before buying anything. We haven't played out your options with what you have and doing so will give us much better information on what replacement speakers may work well for you. It is entirely possible, after some input and adjustments in ARC, you find your current speakers work great.

Also, just FYI, I don't believe the Song 3s having the woofer low is an issue. Directional cues occur at the higher frequencies and those will be coming from the mid and tweeter. Another option might be the Salk Song Towers, as your listening levels are low, but lets not go there yet. Lets work with what you have, as there is a lot of room to dial it in and get you closer to what you want for no money.

My children.....Yeah, I kinda hate them growing up as a bit of the child in them fades away as each day passes.

I really am limited to the placement I have shown. It's far from ideal but the room shape and furniture (and wife) dictates those positions.
I did move the left speaker to the left of the doorway once before but 1. it looked odd 2. wife hated it and 3. it made no difference whatsoever to the measured response and boominess.

In fact, yesterday I took a few more measurements and played with speaker position again.
That 40hz peak was there no matter what position I placed the speaker in!! Seriously, even a metre away from the front wall and no difference!
I even placed the speaker in the doorway thinking that the big open kitchen behind it would allow the speaker to breathe and nullify that 40hz peak......no difference AT ALL!
The 40hz peak is 18 decibels higher than the calibrated 75db I target. That is totally unacceptable.

I have come to the conclusion that these speakers in my room just do not fit at all and I will be selling them.

Look at this image:



This is with both my subs playing with an 80hz crossover but even ARC can't resolve anything below 500hz. There's just too much energy in the room.

 

[Sparky]

I've spoken to Jim @ Salk Sound by the way and he recommends, for my room either Song3A (well above my budget). I've looked at the dimensions of the Song3 and they are HUGE compared to my Spendor A7's so the WAF would be well out the window!

The only speakers from Salk Sound that fit the dimensions I need are either the Songbird or Veracity TL.
Jim says that a TL speaker in my room would work really well but I'm not convinced at all. Regardless of bass delivery, won't that same 40hz mode be excited???

 

[CDMC]

My children.....Yeah, I kinda hate them growing up as a bit of the child in them fades away as each day passes.

I really am limited to the placement I have shown. It's far from ideal but the room shape and furniture (and wife) dictates those positions.
I did move the left speaker to the left of the doorway once before but 1. it looked odd 2. wife hated it and 3. it made no difference whatsoever to the measured response and boominess.

In fact, yesterday I took a few more measurements and played with speaker position again.
That 40hz peak was there no matter what position I placed the speaker in!! Seriously, even a metre away from the front wall and no difference!
I even placed the speaker in the doorway thinking that the big open kitchen behind it would allow the speaker to breathe and nullify that 40hz peak......no difference AT ALL!
The 40hz peak is 18 decibels higher than the calibrated 75db I target. That is totally unacceptable.

I have come to the conclusion that these speakers in my room just do not fit at all and I will be selling them.

Look at this image:

View attachment 86053

This is with both my subs playing with an 80hz crossover but even ARC can't resolve anything below 500hz. There's just too much energy in the room.

I feel like we are going in circles. You are so focused on replacing your speakers, you keep skipping over that you have have very powerful tools in your toolbox with both ARC and your Mini DSP. Looking at your REW graph, here is what I see:

• You don't have a huge peak at 40 hz. You have have a broad peak centered at 40hz of approximately 3 db. Have you implemented a 24db octave low pass on your subs in Mini-DSP yet? If not, please do it. As it stands, it does not appears that what you are seeing as a 40hz peak is related to your mains, but rather too much gain on your subs, as your bass is shelved up about 5 db starting at 70hz.
• Again, before you go any further, please make some changes with what you have, measure and report back. Please try the following:
  • Make sure your high pass and low pass for your subs and mains are set to 24db an octave, not 12db an octave.
  • Run a measurement with just your mains after doing this and post the graph. (do the left and right separately). We should see the bass dropping off steeply below your crossover frequency with no equalization.
  • Assuming you still have the broad peak in the bass, reduce the gain on your subs by 5db. This will move the entire bass level down.
  • Implement a -3db Q1 high cut filter at 1500 hz. Your mains have broad rise starting at 1000hz that will make them sound forward and bright. Lets see what knocking that down a bit does.

Please do take some time and work with us on some tuning before you purchase any new speakers. While these may not be the right speakers for you, you are repeating your past actions which you described as:

I've lost count of the amount of times I've brought speakers home after a dealer demo only to find they are just not suited to my room.​

I made the same mistake with my current floorstanders. They dig too deep and activate a room mode at 40hz which even ARC struggles with.​

They have to go in favour of a nice pair of bookshelves.​

​

Your room is not bad. All rooms have mode issues. I see two real issues, the first is implementation, the second is a speaker that is not voiced well. Lets deal with the first issue (and prove to you that it isn't a floorstanding v bookshelf issue) which is the bass and can be fully dealt with with the equipment you have on hand and not monetary cost to you. Once that is done, then lets look at your choices that can replace the speakers you have that have a forward voicing issue in the upper midrange and low treble.

 

[CDMC]

I've spoken to Jim @ Salk Sound by the way and he recommends, for my room either Song3A (well above my budget). I've looked at the dimensions of the Song3 and they are HUGE compared to my Spendor A7's so the WAF would be well out the window!

The only speakers from Salk Sound that fit the dimensions I need are either the Songbird or Veracity TL.
Jim says that a TL speaker in my room would work really well but I'm not convinced at all. Regardless of bass delivery, won't that same 40hz mode be excited???

Again, lets fix the bass issue first with the tools that you have that will allow it to do so. You keep going in circles about your 40hz mode, a mode that will not be activated by even a full range speaker with flat response down to 20 hz if you have it properly crossed over.

According to Dennis Murphy, Jim is going to be releasing a new version of the Songtower with the SB Acoustics 5" drivers that are being used in the Philharmonic Mini. He doesn't mention the tweeter, but I am guessing that will be upgraded, perhaps to the Aurum Cantus AMT used in the Mini. But again, before you go delving down the new speaker hole, please try implementing the suggestions made.

 

[Sparky]

I feel like we are going in circles. You are so focused on replacing your speakers, you keep skipping over that you have have very powerful tools in your toolbox with both ARC and your Mini DSP. Looking at your REW graph, here is what I see:

• You don't have a huge peak at 40 hz. You have have a broad peak centered at 40hz of approximately 3 db. Have you implemented a 24db octave low pass on your subs in Mini-DSP yet? If not, please do it. As it stands, it does not appears that what you are seeing as a 40hz peak is related to your mains, but rather too much gain on your subs, as your bass is shelved up about 5 db starting at 70hz.
• Again, before you go any further, please make some changes with what you have, measure and report back. Please try the following:
  • Make sure your high pass and low pass for your subs and mains are set to 24db an octave, not 12db an octave.
  • Run a measurement with just your mains after doing this and post the graph. (do the left and right separately). We should see the bass dropping off steeply below your crossover frequency with no equalization.
  • Assuming you still have the broad peak in the bass, reduce the gain on your subs by 5db. This will move the entire bass level down.
  • Implement a -3db Q1 high cut filter at 1500 hz. Your mains have broad rise starting at 1000hz that will make them sound forward and bright. Lets see what knocking that down a bit does.

Please do take some time and work with us on some tuning before you purchase any new speakers. While these may not be the right speakers for you, you are repeating your past actions which you described as:

I've lost count of the amount of times I've brought speakers home after a dealer demo only to find they are just not suited to my room.​

I made the same mistake with my current floorstanders. They dig too deep and activate a room mode at 40hz which even ARC struggles with.​

They have to go in favour of a nice pair of bookshelves.​

​

Your room is not bad. All rooms have mode issues. I see two real issues, the first is implementation, the second is a speaker that is not voiced well. Lets deal with the first issue (and prove to you that it isn't a floorstanding v bookshelf issue) which is the bass and can be fully dealt with with the equipment you have on hand and not monetary cost to you. Once that is done, then lets look at your choices that can replace the speakers you have that have a forward voicing issue in the upper midrange and low treble.

I feel like I've just been scolded off my dad!
Joking aside, I see your point and I agree with you.
I think I need to make something clear though, the minidsp is only being used for the subs and that's it. I was using it to apply delay and EQ before I purchased the Anthem STR. I left it in place as it offers me instant control over bass and allows me to turn subs off individually when doing measurements.


I tell you what, I'll redo my measurements from scratch with no crossovers or EQ in place.
I'll do my mains individually then my subs individually and then combined.

That will allow you to see everything as it is instead of me trying to explain it (very poorly).

I'll post back when I've had chance to do it....

 

[Sparky]

Again, lets fix the bass issue first with the tools that you have that will allow it to do so. You keep going in circles about your 40hz mode, a mode that will not be activated by even a full range speaker with flat response down to 20 hz if you have it properly crossed over.

According to Dennis Murphy, Jim is going to be releasing a new version of the Songtower with the SB Acoustics 5" drivers that are being used in the Philharmonic Mini. He doesn't mention the tweeter, but I am guessing that will be upgraded, perhaps to the Aurum Cantus AMT used in the Mini. But again, before you go delving down the new speaker hole, please try implementing the suggestions made.

Ooooh... A new Song tower eh.... Now you're just teasing...

 

[Sparky]

I have no means of EQing my speakers other than ARC by the way.....

 

[Sparky]

@CDMC If you look at the full range measurements with no subs in play, it certainly is the speakers causing the 40hz peak.
My subs on their own are awful (as are most) but when played together, they sum very well together.

 

[CDMC]

I think I need to make something clear though, the minidsp is only being used for the subs and that's it. I was using it to apply delay and EQ before I purchased the Anthem STR. I left it in place as it offers me instant control over bass and allows me to turn subs off individually when doing measurements.

I tell you what, I'll redo my measurements from scratch with no crossovers or EQ in place.
I'll do my mains individually then my subs individually and then combined.

That will allow you to see everything as it is instead of me trying to explain it (very poorly).

I'll post back when I've had chance to do it....

Thanks. It looks like the Mini-DSP serves no purpose at this point, except to add confusion and an unnecessary additional step in the chain. I suggest you remove it, as after a quick glance at the ARC manual, it allows you do perform individual time and phase delays for each subwoofer and channel, and has adjustable crossover frequencies and slopes. It will be much easier to work solely within ARC rather than trying to use both ARC and Mini-DSP.

This is going to require a bit of work, as we are going to essentially start over from scratch. That said, it should result in a much better outcome, as I think that using the Mini-DSP with ARC is making it much harder to dial in the system than learning to use and apply ARC well. The good news is you have your speaker and subwoofer positions dialed, so it is really just working with ARC at this point.

Please do run the measurements and when I get a bit of time, I will delve into ARC a bit. First I have to go mow the lawn (I always swore I would have someone do that when I grew up, maybe after I am 50).

 

[richard12511]

@CDMC If you look at the full range measurements with no subs in play, it certainly is the speakers causing the 40hz peak.
My subs on their own are awful (as are most) but when played together, they sum very well together.

Those Right/Left measurements look like full range measurements, though, which are irrelevant here. When you're running them with subs, your mains have nothing to do with that 40Hz peak, so buying new mains will do nothing to address that problem. Am I misunderstanding something? Measure your mains with no subs and a 24/db crossover in place to see.

 

[CDMC]

@CDMC If you look at the full range measurements with no subs in play, it certainly is the speakers causing the 40hz peak.
My subs on their own are awful (as are most) but when played together, they sum very well together.

I took your left and right full range and plugged in a 24db/oct filter at 80 hz. As you can see, by doing so, at 40hz your room mode is DOWN more than 10db from your midrange level. With a 24db high pass filter to your mains, they should not be causing any issues with that mode. What I also notice is that your speakers have a broad dip in the 80-500hz range, much worse in your left speaker. This will have the effect of reducing the midbass, but also of making the below 80hz bass sound louder.

I have posted the charts with both 1/24th resolution and Psychoacoustic which mimics how we hear it.

 

[Sparky]

Thanks. It looks like the Mini-DSP serves no purpose at this point, except to add confusion and an unnecessary additional step in the chain. I suggest you remove it, as after a quick glance at the ARC manual, it allows you do perform individual time and phase delays for each subwoofer and channel, and has adjustable crossover frequencies and slopes. It will be much easier to work solely within ARC rather than trying to use both ARC and Mini-DSP.

This is going to require a bit of work, as we are going to essentially start over from scratch. That said, it should result in a much better outcome, as I think that using the Mini-DSP with ARC is making it much harder to dial in the system than learning to use and apply ARC well. The good news is you have your speaker and subwoofer positions dialed, so it is really just working with ARC at this point.

Please do run the measurements and when I get a bit of time, I will delve into ARC a bit. First I have to go mow the lawn (I always swore I would have someone do that when I grew up, maybe after I am 50).

Thanks for sticking with me on this...

I'll measure when I get chance to and when I do, I'll post back with the results and we'll see where we go from there.....

Good luck with the lawn!!

 

[SpaceMonkey]

Tldr all the thread, but if topic starter wants revel price on these look right for new. And they are rather close.
https://www.eliteaudiouk.com/produc...floorstanding-tower-loudspeakers-black-finish

There was a guy herein another thread. He got 208s from these guys and was happy iirc

 

[Sparky]

Tldr all the thread, but if topic starter wants revel price on these look right for new. And they are rather close.
https://www.eliteaudiouk.com/produc...floorstanding-tower-loudspeakers-black-finish

There was a guy herein another thread. He got 208s from these guys and was happy iirc

Thanks for the heads-up! I'll keep an eye on that...