Purifi 1et400a monoblocks with Revel M126be?

[Sparky]

Hi all.

I'm considering a purchase of the Revel M126be speakers which are quite rare over here in England.
They are 4 grand a pair which is a LOT of money especially when you consider there are no ex-demo, used or home trials available due to them being a "special order" which means there are no deals to be brokered either.

My main reason for considering the M126be is the reviews of both the M105 & M105 on here (and many other sites) and the seemingly glowing reviews of the M126be's.

I prefer to hear any recording as it is naturally with no colouration and, with the measurements seeming to present a "flat" response, these speakers look to fit the bill quite nicely. Not to mention the fact that they look the part and are available in walnut (which is a wife acceptance requirement).

I have a pair of March Audio's Purifi P451 monoblocks to power them with an Anthem STR Pre-amp with mogami interconnects and speaker cable.

Do you guys think the speakers will respond well to the amplification and Pre-amp or would it be a sibilant mess!

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

 

[CDMC]

Hi all.

I'm considering a purchase of the Revel M126be speakers which are quite rare over here in England.
They are 4 grand a pair which is a LOT of money especially when you consider there are no ex-demo, used or home trials available due to them being a "special order" which means there are no deals to be brokered either.

My main reason for considering the M126be is the reviews of both the M105 & M105 on here (and many other sites) and the seemingly glowing reviews of the M126be's.

I prefer to hear any recording as it is naturally with no colouration and, with the measurements seeming to present a "flat" response, these speakers look to fit the bill quite nicely. Not to mention the fact that they look the part and are available in walnut (which is a wife acceptance requirement).

I have a pair of March Audio's Purifi P451 monoblocks to power them with an Anthem STR Pre-amp with mogami interconnects and speaker cable.

Do you guys think the speakers will respond well to the amplification and Pre-amp or would it be a sibilant mess!

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

It will be terrible. You should immediately pack them up and ship them to me where I will dispose of them properly.

You are kidding, right. Your front end is about as transparent as it gets, as are the Revels. If you have a sibilant mess, it will be the recording or your room.

 

[AnalogSteph]

Do you guys think the speakers will respond well to the amplification and Pre-amp or would it be a sibilant mess!

I think you may be overestimating the influence of electronics a bit there. The kind of issues you are talking about would typically caused by things acoustic, predominantly speaker dispersion issues or problematic room acoustics. The former can probably be pretty much ruled out in this case.

4k GBP does remain a major chunk of money for a pair of passive 6.5" / 1" bookshelf speakers. Apples and oranges perhaps, but a pair of Neumann KH310As is almost a grand less for active 3-ways (and the powerful ADAM S3V/S3H are just a bit more). There's only so much even a good 6.5" (short of a Purifi PTT6.5W... perhaps) in a smallish enclosure can do in the bass department, and the M126be woofer appears to be hitting 3% THD by 100 Hz at 90 dB / 2 m and is 3 dB down at ~70 Hz, all of which seems decent but more typical than spectacular for the size.

Whether that's an issue will depend heavily on the demands made by recordings as well as listening distance and room acoustics. For example, as dynamic as classical music can be, it often contains little in terms of deep bass - the same is clearly not true for some other musical genres.

 

[phoenixdogfan]

My suggestion would be to consider the F226be' s instead. They will have real woofers and will be able to play louder. As for the Purifi, I would suggest you buy a case from Ghent, get the Eval 1, and buy an SMPS 1200A400 from Hypex. When Ghent releases the new case, it will just be a straight assembly job, and will save you enough money over the monoblocks (which will add nothing in the way of fidelity) to pay for the speaker upgrade.

 

[Sal1950]

You are kidding, right. Your front end is about as transparent as it gets, as are the Revels. If you have a sibilant mess, it will be the recording or your room.

Agreed, this combo should be about as transparent as it gets and should offer up a very clear reflection of whats on the source.
Also your Anthem Pre includes the ARC room correction which should leave enough FR tweaking in your hands to dial in any type of minor voicing you may prefer. What's not to like here?

 

[Sparky]

Thanks for your replies, I really appreciate it.

It's just a large amount of money that's all and there is no substitute for a "home demo".
I've lost count of the amount of times I've brought speakers home after a dealer demo only to find they are just not suited to my room.
I made the same mistake with my current floorstanders. They dig too deep and activate a room mode at 40hz which even ARC struggles with.
They have to go in favour of a nice pair of bookshelves.

I use two subwoofers that I have aligned using REW to great effect and I get a really nice response so blending them with the likes of the M126be's would be a breeze...

I've spotted a pair on USAM which are open box but new which could save me a good few quid then there's the risk of buying from another country with no comebacks if something goes wrong.... Risky...

 

[Sparky]

I think you may be overestimating the influence of electronics a bit there. The kind of issues you are talking about would typically caused by things acoustic, predominantly speaker dispersion issues or problematic room acoustics. The former can probably be pretty much ruled out in this case.

4k GBP does remain a major chunk of money for a pair of passive 6.5" / 1" bookshelf speakers. Apples and oranges perhaps, but a pair of Neumann KH310As is almost a grand less for active 3-ways (and the powerful ADAM S3V/S3H are just a bit more). There's only so much even a good 6.5" (short of a Purifi PTT6.5W... perhaps) in a smallish enclosure can do in the bass department, and the M126be woofer appears to be hitting 3% THD by 100 Hz at 90 dB / 2 m and is 3 dB down at ~70 Hz, all of which seems decent but more typical than spectacular for the size.

Whether that's an issue will depend heavily on the demands made by recordings as well as listening distance and room acoustics. For example, as dynamic as classical music can be, it often contains little in terms of deep bass - the same is clearly not true for some other musical genres.

Thanks for this. You make perfect sense of course but my amps and Pre-amp have already been purchased so I'm committed to passive I'm afraid but to be honest, if I had my time again, I would've gone active as the flexibility is beyond compare.

I'm a fan of all types of music really but have a particular like of certain classical tracks. In particular, organ music which my subs deal with extremely well but I love clarity and detail. By the sounds of what you guys are saying, these speakers should be a lovely match.

 

[Sparky]

The M126be's on USAM are being sold by Derek at Audio Thesis who, I'm led to believe, is a straight up guy.

I'm in conversation with him via email.... My only concern is warranty and the fact he isn't a REVEL dealer so it's a risky proposion but attractive nonetheless.

 

[Absolute]

Here's my honest thoughts on speakers in a normal living room after going through some very different ones over the last few years, like Monitor Audio Gold 200, Monitor Audio Platinum 200, Kii Three, Klipsch RP-160m + subwoofers & JBL M2.

- For realism you need capacity, even if you don't play particularly loud. That means both transient capacity and good bass extension.

- Small speakers will strain themselves on normal-ish loud volume levels and will sound harsher way earlier than bigger speakers.

- Dispersion, or rather controlled dispersion, is more important than anything else. Go for speakers with well-controlled off-axis response.

- More than 2k in a small speaker is a waste of money - put money towards quality going up in size instead. And acoustics! Very important!

- Frequency response both on-axis and off-axis is way more important than driver material, fancy terms and marketing talk.

- For a relaxing anti-sibilant nature, avoid speakers with a rise in frequency response from 5khz and up to 10 khz.


So, for your particular case I'd say you'd be better off spending a lot less with the M106/M16 (I don't remember which is which) and instead focus some attention towards acoustics and tone controls as well as looking into a couple of cute subs. If subs are out of the question, I'd far rather recommend something like the JBL HDi 3600 for the same money than small two-ways for the same price.

 

[CDMC]

Thanks for your replies, I really appreciate it.

It's just a large amount of money that's all and there is no substitute for a "home demo".
I've lost count of the amount of times I've brought speakers home after a dealer demo only to find they are just not suited to my room.
I made the same mistake with my current floorstanders. They dig too deep and activate a room mode at 40hz which even ARC struggles with.
They have to go in favour of a nice pair of bookshelves.

I use two subwoofers that I have aligned using REW to great effect and I get a really nice response so blending them with the likes of the M126be's would be a breeze...

I've spotted a pair on USAM which are open box but new which could save me a good few quid then there's the risk of buying from another country with no comebacks if something goes wrong.... Risky...

Are you high passing your main speakers? It seems to be before buying new speakers, if you like the other attributes of the ones you have and are not high passing them, get a 24db/octave high pass and cross them over about 80hz. Your subs should be the only speakers excited a 40hz room mode.

 

[Sparky]

Are you high passing your main speakers? It seems to be before buying new speakers, if you like the other attributes of the ones you have and are not high passing them, get a 24db/octave high pass and cross them over about 80hz. Your subs should be the only speakers excited a 40hz room mode.

I use an 80hz x-over to good effect but only when ARC is enabled. Without ARC, its a mess.
My speakers (Spendor A7) are "voiced" so have a large rise between 2-5khz and I'm not sure I want this anymore as its artificial.
Maybe I'm being daft but I just want to try something new.... Its an itch that just won't go away.

After reading about the Revel's - M105/106/126be I've become intrigued by them.

 

[Sparky]

Aesthetics are a big consideration in speaker choice too. They are in a lounge/living room which means they have to look the part and blend with the surroundings. We have walnut furniture so the speakers must also be walnut (any other colour just looks odd) so this limits choice too as not all speaker manufacturers make a walnut cabinet.
They also have to pass the WAF aspect. The Revels certainly tick that box in spades.

If I had a man cave, things would be different but this is the situation I'm in so have to go with what's available. It may turn out that the speakers I have now are the perfect ones for my room but I just want to try something different so I can experience the sound of Revel and make an informed choice.

 

[CDMC]

A few suggestions:

1) Before buying anything, get a Umik 1, download REW and do some measurements. It will help identify if it is your room or the speakers creating the brightness. In my room I have very long decay times in the 1-3khz range which cause a forward sound.

2) As others have suggested, all things being equal, generally a larger speaker will have cleaner output at higher levels. Given you are high passing your mains, I wouldn’t get too concerned about this, unless you listen at levels with peaks much over 95db.

3) Not sure if he is shipping to the UK, but Dennis Murphy has the new BMR, in Walnut for $1700 a pair plus shipping.

http://www.philharmonicaudio.com/

https://www.avsforum.com/threads/philharmonic-audio-dennis-murphy.1348949/page-527

You could get the last generation (Dennis up updated the woofer in his new ones) from Salk Sound starting at $2400 in any finish you want. Having had a couple of pairs of Salks, their cabinets are by far the nicest looking I have ever seen. Even their Henry Ford black is a nice sating finish, smooth with just a hint of shine.

https://www.salksound.com/model.php?model=BMR+Monitors

 

[Sparky]

A few suggestions:

1) Before buying anything, get a Umik 1, download REW and do some measurements. It will help identify if it is your room or the speakers creating the brightness. In my room I have very long decay times in the 1-3khz range which cause a forward sound.

2) As others have suggested, all things being equal, generally a larger speaker will have cleaner output at higher levels. Given you are high passing your mains, I wouldn’t get too concerned about this, unless you listen at levels with peaks much over 95db.

3) Not sure if he is shipping to the UK, but Dennis Murphy has the new BMR, in Walnut for $1700 a pair plus shipping.

http://www.philharmonicaudio.com/

https://www.avsforum.com/threads/philharmonic-audio-dennis-murphy.1348949/page-527

You could get the last generation (Dennis up updated the woofer in his new ones) from Salk Sound starting at $2400 in any finish you want. Having had a couple of pairs of Salks, their cabinets are by far the nicest looking I have ever seen. Even their Henry Ford black is a nice sating finish, smooth with just a hint of shine.

https://www.salksound.com/model.php?model=BMR+Monitors

Hi.

Thanks for replying and giving some really helpful info. Also, you've opened my eyes slightly to alternatives to Revel (although my heart is kinda set on them). Those Philharmonic speakers look fantastic BUT they go low to 32hz so may end up causing me the same issues I currently have with my current Spendor A7's.

I am familiar with REW and use it off and on occasionally . I own a UMIK1 too.

I have attached the most recent MDAT screenshots (I can't upload my true MDAT for some reason) for you to look at if you so wish. I would appreciate your insight into the measurements and how you see my "room" in the sense of frequency response.
The response is full range with no EQ for both speakers.
The subs are time aligned using a mindsp 2x4HD but still with no EQ.



I think my speakers look an absolute mess to be honest. Subs are good though and I get very very good output down to 14hz which is why I want to change to bookshelf speakers to better integrate with my subs.

As you can see, I have a terrible room mode at 40hz so I want to avoid speakers that extend that low.

I'll look at those Philharmonics again though....hehehe.

 

[CDMC]

Hi.

Thanks for replying and giving some really helpful info. Also, you've opened my eyes slightly to alternatives to Revel (although my heart is kinda set on them). Those Philharmonic speakers look fantastic BUT they go low to 32hz so may end up causing me the same issues I currently have with my current Spendor A7's.

I am familiar with REW and use it off and on occasionally . I own a UMIK1 too.

I have attached the most recent MDAT screenshots (I can't upload my true MDAT for some reason) for you to look at if you so wish. I would appreciate your insight into the measurements and how you see my "room" in the sense of frequency response.
The response is full range with no EQ for both speakers.
The subs are time aligned using a mindsp 2x4HD but still with no EQ.

View attachment 84942View attachment 84943View attachment 84944

I think my speakers look an absolute mess to be honest. Subs are good though and I get very very good output down to 14hz which is why I want to change to bookshelf speakers to better integrate with my subs.

As you can see, I have a terrible room mode at 40hz so I want to avoid speakers that extend that low.

I'll look at those Philharmonics again though....hehehe.

Can you run a decay and RT60 and post?

 

[restorer-john]

...They are 4 grand a pair which is a LOT of money...

Way too much for mass-produced, Chinese made 6.5" two way bookshelf speakers. Maybe if they came with a bar of gold inside.

 

[Sparky]

Can you run a decay and RT60 and post?

Hi.

I hope these help? Let me know if you need anything in particular?

 

[Sparky]

Way too much for mass-produced, Chinese made 6.5" two way bookshelf speakers. Maybe if they came with a bar of gold inside.

Hi John.

I don't know how much of this thread you have read but I am limited by aesthetics and space.
I need a Walnut bookshelf but there just isn't that much out there that fit the bill.

I am aware that they are probably overpriced but they seem to tick every box for me (although the philharmonic that CDMC has mentioned look to be a good bet).

Do you have any recommendations?

 

[Sparky]

Hi.

I hope these help? Let me know if you need anything in particular?

View attachment 85004View attachment 85005View attachment 85006View attachment 85007

I don't really understand these graphs to be honest so if you could explain what you are looking for, that would be great!

 

[CDMC]

I don't really understand these graphs to be honest so if you could explain what you are looking for, that would be great!

I will tell you what I see and think with the caveat that I have a moderate understanding of the RT60 and decay curves and there are others that are far more sophisticated than I am. Working backwards:

• In looking at the waterfall, I am looking to see if there is any real unevenness in the decay times that could leads to the excess of energy we from about 500 hz up to about 2k hz when we look at your frequency response graphs. If there is, it is your room causing the excess energy, not the speaker. What I see in your waterfall is a very even and consistent decay across that frequency range. The RT 60 range confirms that, showing decay times from 250-350 ms, which is a well dampened (actually slightly over dampened) room. This means the excess energy in that range is your speakers, not the room. It also means you should not add any dampening to the room, it will make it too dead.
• The Rt60 also shows you have a bit of ringing in the 120hz area (which isn't there on the waterfall) and the waterfall shows your room mode at 40hz with a long decay. It appears from it your room is relatively square. There is no reasonable room treatment that will fix this issue, we all have large modes in the bass, don't worry about it too much, this is where your room correction software is useful.
• Remember, unless there is something really off with the room, the speaker's voicing dominates the sound above the Schroeder frequency, the room below it. The Schroeder frequency in most rooms is about 200hz (it can be calculated with the room dimensions).

So now that we know how your room is measuring, lets look at your speakers and what we can do with them:

• We are fortunate, Stereophile has measured your Spendors so we have some good data on them: https://www.stereophile.com/content/spendor-a7-loudspeaker-measurements . I see a few things that stand out that I don't like in measuring them and would lead to them being less than optimal in your room:
  • Depending on how your look at it, they either have a broad suckout from 100-600 hz or a broad plateau from 700-10,000 hz.
  • Their bass is strange. Generally we will see a from a very slight to a broader bump centered at about 100hz in the stereophile measurements, see these examples:
    • https://www.stereophile.com/content/revel-performa-f228be-loudspeaker-measurements
    • https://www.stereophile.com/content/kef-reference-5-loudspeaker-measurements
  • Your speakers don't have this bump. Rather they have a huge suckout from 150-200 hz and then a peak at 55hz. As a result their -10db point is about 30hz and at 40 hz they are only down a couple of db, which means they are going to really aggravate your room mode. They probably still aggravate it with an 80hz hp because of this weird response. Since you are using a Mini DSP, try 36db octave on them.
  • Generally, when looking at an in room response, we like to see a 5-6 db overall drop from about 100hz to 10k. We have the opposite in your room, which is going to lead to a forward and thin sound, with a big fat boom at 40hz because of their strange bass response.
  • Before you buy other speakers, give the following a try with your mini dsp:
    • Change your high pass to 36db/oct at 80 hz.
    • Add a -3db 1.0q filter at 1,200 hz.
    • Add three high shelf filters, one at 215hz, one at 1000 hz, and one at 4642 hz, all -1.7db with a q of .5. This will give you a mild house curve.
  • The foregoing filters should help with the broad midrange peak and add a bit of a house curve. Let us know how this sounds. It should help some, but your Spendors have inconsistent off axis response which will limit the effectiveness of using an EQ.

So looking at alternative speakers, here are my thoughts:

• Most floor standing speakers should work well in your room, especially when used with a crossover. The issue you having with your current speakers aggravating your bass mode appears to be due to their peaking close to your mode frequency. Even with a 24db octave filter at 80hz they still are putting out significant bass. Compare that to even a Revel F228be or Kef Reference 5, both of which have good strong bass, but not a peak at 50 hz and you will see that they have about 5-6 db less energy at 40 hz relative to the midrange (4 times less energy).
• I am a believer that even crossed over, your main speakers should, if possible, offer a relatively linear response to 1 octave below the crossover frequency. This means down to 40hz. This gives a more predicable transition from the mains to the subs. It also favors floor standing speakers over bookshelves.
• I would not get concerned about the BMR's extending down to 32hz. Their bass is highly dampened with a -3 db of 62hz and -10db of 35hz. Combined with your crossover, even counting room gain, and they should be at least 20db down at your room mode of 40hz. See Erin's measurements here: https://www.erinsaudiocorner.com/loudspeakers/philharmonic_bmr/
• If you look outside the Revel camp, you may be able to find better values in the UK. I would suggest checking out some KEFs, Elac and Dynaudio speakers also, all of which are engineering focused companies. Harbeth may also be a good choice as they are UK based. Also, the Wharfedale Linton Heritage come in walnut and could be a good fit.
• I would also suggest you consider the Salk Song 3 speakers. https://www.salksound.com/model.php?model=song3 Not sure what they would cost shipped to your door. I had a pair and they were very good sounding, transparent, and the tweeter sounded a bit sweeter and better than my Revels. The reason I didn't keep them was they had a very flat and dampened bass, where I like a bit of hump like the F208s have. For you, they could be a really good fit, plus you can get them made to exactly match your existing furniture.

I know it is a lot to digest, with perhaps not the best explanations, but I hope this helps sum up what I see as the problems you are experiencing with your current speakers, how to try and correct them in the meantime, and what to look for in a replacement pair.