Pure Electric Vehicles

[Imakeller]

The only rub is the tech keeps improving in cars. Range has gone from 200 to 300 miles in just a couple of years which is fine for commuting. The new BMWs are touting 400. So this on a deprecating asset. Not so much on the house an appreciating asset where you expect to use it for many more years.

I feel like the technology has matured with home solar, batteries, and EVs, to a point where it’s a great time to make a long term purchase. Yes, things will continue progressing, but my home system and EV won’t become unusable.

 

[BJL]

The only rub is the tech keeps improving in cars. Range has gone from 200 to 300 miles in just a couple of years which is fine for commuting. The new BMWs are touting 400. So this on a deprecating asset. Not so much on the house an appreciating asset where you expect to use it for many more years.

I don't think of my car as an asset at all. I think of it as something to use until it dies.

 

[amper42]

Economics of renewables trounces fossil fuel.

I would love this to be true but it really depends on when you bought and where you live.

My electric bill for an entire year is $2100. That's with two heat pumps during warm summer months and electric lighting and cooking the rest of the year. I really wanted to go solar, but I didn't want it on the roof. The local rules don't really let you put it where ever you want. Even if I agreed to use the roof the cost for a system to support the summer load was about $30,000 plus. Tax credits would have helped but it was hard to consider a 15-20 year payback. Batteries raise the price even more. In addition, the local utility cut the buy back on power not used to 25% of what they charge for it and added a big monthly surcharge for solar connections. At every turn the utility was looking for a way to make solar less viable. Now with no tax credit, new sales are minimal. The economics of owning a solar system have gone from marginal to horrible in my area.

 

[mhardy6647]

An EV as a battery to store excess solar energy in lieu of purpose-built household batteries might not quite qualify as an asset, but it's a potential* win-win.

No battery here (wheeled nor static), but we have net metering so as long as we produce and feed excess energy into the grid, we bank what we don't use against future needs. We're still tied to the grid, but we haven't paid an electricity bill for quite a while (other than ca. $14 per month service charge/connection fee).

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* heh, a little voltage pun, there.

 

[BJL]

I would love this to be true but it really depends on when you bought and where you live.

My electric bill for an entire year is $2100. That's with two heat pumps during warm summer months and electric lighting and cooking the rest of the year. I really wanted to go solar, but I didn't want it on the roof. The local rules don't really let you put it where ever you want. Even if I agreed to use the roof the cost for a system to support the summer load was about $30,000 plus. Tax credits would have helped but it was hard to consider a 15-20 year payback. Batteries raise the price even more. In addition, the local utility cut the buy back on power not used to 25% of what they charge for it and added a big monthly surcharge for solar connections. At every turn the utility was looking for a way to make solar less viable. Now with no tax credit, new sales are minimal. The economics of owning a solar system have gone from marginal to horrible in my area.

I share your frustration. This is a problem specific to the United States. The current administration has done everything in its power to undermine rooftop (or other decentralized) solar (as well as undermining utility scale renewables,) eliminated incentives for battery production and solar panel production in the US, and blocked or made too expensive through tariffs importation of inexpensive Chinese made products (previous administration did this latter as well.) At the same time, local permitting requirements are burdensome and local utilities are able to slow walk permissions to operate. All flowing from the current obsession with fossil fuels by the central government, no doubt in part because of pay offs.

The truly pathetic aspect of this is that the underlying technology of photovoltaics was developed and first commercialized at Bell Laboratories in the 1950s. When Ronald Reagan ripped the solar panels off the White House roof, he planted the seeds for the current miserable situation here in the U.S.

But the comment by @Timcognito that you quoted is entirely correct. It's simply that in the U.S. the government (Federal and local) have done all they can to make decentralized solar uneconomical.

 

[amper42]

But the comment by @Timcognito[/USER] that you quoted is entirely correct. It's simply that in the U.S. the government (Federal and local) have done all they can to make decentralized solar uneconomical.

I blame the utility companies as well as government. At first, everyone embraced solar but soon the utility companies began to fear it and looked for ways to slow growth, add fees and take away incentives while buying the unused solar power back on the cheap. The local government could have stopped that but chose to side with electric companies.

Power companies also encouraged buying heat pumps, 6.5" spray foam under roof, variable speed pool pumps and more, but then changed billing rules to raise connect fees by 50% where these costly energy saving expenditures don't help. It's pretty much a Ponzi scheme to get you to spend more and then change the rules so you pay more anyway.

 

[Timcognito]

I think was said about power companies is true but here in California we are well over 50% renewable and growing fast with new large solar and wind projects coming onto the grid all the time. The new tread is in industrial sized battery storage facilities.

 

[Frank Dernie]

For me it was a no-go for Lithium and others, that craves holes into earth, what made me very suspicious.

Well we have had oil wells and coal mines creating holes and huge desolate areas for a century plus, and the leaks and slag heap accidents to go with them, and they, unlike lithium, can obviously not be recycled.

 

[Mr. Widget]

An EV as a battery to store excess solar energy in lieu of purpose-built household batteries might not quite qualify as an asset, but it's a potential* win-win.

No battery here (wheeled nor static), but we have net metering so as long as we produce and feed excess energy into the grid, we bank what we don't use against future needs. We're still tied to the grid, but we haven't paid an electricity bill for quite a while (other than ca. $14 per month service charge/connection fee).

_______________
* heh, a little voltage pun, there.

Yeah, we have net metering here too... here in Norther California PG&E charges us $0.30 - $0.40 per kWh and they buy back our over production at $0.03 - $0.04... if we didn't have a battery or two, there would be little incentive to have solar. During the summer we dump quite a few kWh back onto the grid and see little for it, but the knowledge that it is the right thing to do.

My current EV is not able to supply power to the house, but I expect my next one will be able to increase our storage and help keep us off the grid in the winter when our production is significantly lower.

 

[mhardy6647]

Yeah, we have net metering here too... here in Norther California PG&E charges us $0.30 - $0.40 per kWh and they buy back our over production at $0.03 - $0.04... if we didn't have a battery or two, there would be little incentive to have solar. During the summer we dump quite a few kWh back onto the grid and see little for it, but the knowledge that it is the right thing to do.

My current EV is not able to supply power to the house, but I expect my next one will be able to increase our storage and help keep us off the grid in the winter when our production is significantly lower.

It's net-net here for kW-hr, if not price (value). If we make 50 kW-hr one theoretical day and burn 20 that same day, 30 goes in the bank. If in the depths of winter, we subsequently make 10 and burn 40 on another theoretical day, the net would be zero, and the cost to us, zero for both of those theoretical days*. So far, so good.

We pay, if memory serves, $14.77 per month for the privilege of being hooked to the grid. We haven't paid more than that $14.77 any month for at least a year and a half.

EDIT: Not paying a few hundered smackers a month for juice pays off the initial investment for our two arrays (which were 100% funded by ourselves) at a pretty respectable clip!
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* Let's call them Gedankentage.

 

[Imakeller]

How much the power company would pay me for my excess electricity wasn’t a big consideration for me. I’m after net-zero independence. I’ll sell them enough to get my bill to $0. Batteries have changed the game for residential solar and made net-metering less of an issue.

 

[amper42]

How much the power company would pay me for my excess electricity wasn’t a big consideration for me. I’m after net-zero independence. I’ll sell them enough to get my bill to $0. Batteries have changed the game for residential solar and made net-metering less of an issue.

When I added the price of battery, to the solar bid, the payback was never. The hardware is expected to reach end of life before 20 years. Each persons situation will be different based on location, power company and install price. It's definitely a math equation.
In addition, the power company holds all the cards as they can change the rates and connection fees at anytime. You think you are buying one thing and it can turns out to be totally different terms later and can negatively impact home values.

It's not like buying a great speaker system and you are done.
Off grid system is the only way to control everything and its more expensive and may leave you on generator for some periods. If government didn't let power company do anything they want it might be more reliable option.

 

[Mr. Widget]

When I added the price of battery, to the solar bid, the payback was never. The hardware is expected to reach end of life before 20 years. Each persons situation will be different based on location, power company and install price. It's definitely a math equation.

100%

In my case, I needed the on site storage for two reasons.

First, it allows me to time shift and during periods of low production I can limit my grid sourced electricity purchases to late night when the price is the lowest.

Second, in my region, the power company shuts down the grid during hot dry windy conditions. Without onsite storage, you are not allowed to generate power with your panels, so without storage during our fairly reagent black outs, you are in the dark.

 

[Imakeller]

When I added the price of battery, to the solar bid, the payback was never. The hardware is expected to reach end of life before 20 years. Each persons situation will be different based on location, power company and install price. It's definitely a math equation.
In addition, the power company holds all the cards as they can change the rates and connection fees at anytime. You think you are buying one thing and it can turns out to be totally different terms later and can negatively impact home values.

It's not like buying a great speaker system and you are done.
Off grid system is the only way to control everything and its more expensive and may leave you on generator for some periods. If government didn't let power company do anything they want it might be more reliable option.

If someone isn’t comfortable with the cost, they shouldn’t do it. In my area, electric rates and fees have historically gone in one direction — UP. I expect all of the power-hungry data centers popping up won’t help either. I’m getting a fairly large system with batteries and my payback is like 11 years IIRC. I don’t get too caught up in the payback timeframe though because I have other motivations too. I mean, what’s the payback on the home theater, cars, new kitchen, vacations, etc.? Every one of them won’t have a financial payback/profit, but are totally worth it. YMMV.

 

[Salt]

Well we have had oil wells and coal mines creating holes and huge desolate areas for a century plus, and the leaks and slag heap accidents to go with them, and they, unlike lithium, can obviously not be recycled.

I can follow You and as I mentioned in my post, have a different view on it now, because, if actual techniques are not supported monetarily, future ones won't either.
My consequence: gas heating gone (last week), solar panels and battery install (next week), heat pump install (this weak), EV (Skoda Elroq 60 2027) leased.

 

[mhardy6647]

How much the power company would pay me for my excess electricity wasn’t a big consideration for me. I’m after net-zero independence. I’ll sell them enough to get my bill to $0. Batteries have changed the game for residential solar and made net-metering less of an issue.

Definitely.
Batteries ain't cheap, though.
Had I an EV, and had I excess capacity, that would probably be my battery.

As an aside, two years ago, when we renovated the house's original PV array (installed during construction) -- due to failure of an essentially obsolete macroinverter -- we thought very hard about putting a tracker on the large open field west of our house. It was about a 50% cost premium over the roof mount system, and we'd have had to pay to get rid of the old roof system, so I chickened out. It would have made significantly more juice, though -- plus, they clear themselves of snow.

The complexity was also a dis-incentive to me, but the topology of our west field is such that a ground-mount tracker wouldn't have been an eyesore for us or our neighbors, but it would have still had all day, clear sky access. Sorry for the semi-digression.

 

[Imakeller]

Definitely.
Batteries ain't cheap, though.
Had I an EV, and had I excess capacity, that would probably be my battery.

As an aside, two years ago, when we renovated the house's original PV array (installed during construction) -- due to failure of an essentially obsolete macroinverter -- we thought very hard about putting a tracker on the large open field west of our house. It was about a 50% cost premium over the roof mount system, and we'd have had to pay to get rid of the old roof system, so I chickened out. It would have made significantly more juice, though -- plus, they clear themselves of snow.

The complexity was also a dis-incentive to me, but the topology of our west field is such that a ground-mount tracker wouldn't have been an eyesore for us or our neighbors, but it would have still had all day, clear sky access. Sorry for the semi-digression.

If someone has a lot of property/large lot, those ground mounted arrays are nice. Sometimes you wouldn’t even know they’re there without an aerial view, but that varies for each situation. Incorporating EV batteries bidirectionally into home solar systems is cutting edge right now, but will soon be a basic feature that will become another game changer.

For EVs, anyone who can do most of their charging at home, the per mile fuel cost is much lower than ICE vehicles. If you can do it by solar, even better.

 

[Timcognito]

Anybody considering solar, EV charging, heat pumps, backup power/storage, these guys are great. They are group that gets you quotes, rates devices and local services, costs assigns representative to stay between you and the provider until the work is completed if necessary. No contractor will bother you until you choose them, with the help of Engerysage. For Free. My interactions were fantastic and my system is just starting to cover all initial costs after six and half years as was predicted when I started. There is a ton of resources on their website even if you don't use them.

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www.energysage.com

 

[Madlop26]

I'm totally agnostic. If I were buying a car today, I would probably buy an EV or a PHEV. When I last bought a car in early '22, few EVs were on the lot in the NYC area, and the model of EV that I wanted had a dealer markup of $45,000. (Had I bought that EV, I would have lost $100K by now on taxes, depreciation, and of course the lost dealer markup, so I'm glad I did not!)


You've never witnessed an undamaged Tesla slowly losing speed and rolling to a stop on the shoulder on the highways around NYC? I don't see it every day, but I've seen it more than once, especially in winter. I have assumed that that these vehicles are coasting to a stop because of a loss of battery power, but I cannot be certain.


The tragedy of fossil fuels is not that they are produced and consumed by losers. On the contrary, the busiest, most productive, and most economically successful people I know voraciously consume fossil fuels. The most effective businessperson I have ever met (you have heard of him and almost certainly think he is the spawn of Satan) is in the oil business.

The EV is the automotive equivalent of ordering a double bacon cheeseburger, a mountain of slippery fries cooked in trans fat, and a Diet Coke while believing that the aspartame somehow renders nugatory the damage inflicted by the slop in the bag.

I wish you well.

sigh.... why.. why.. you make so many statements when it is clear you have little experience in the issue. You have not owned and EV so how factual your statement can be? I have lease BMWs my whole life (gas and hybrids), switched to Tesla in January, and i am telling you, I am not going back!. It is not only the amount of money I am saving ,( i did detail measurements in gas and electric consumptions along all the other expenses, and it is a lot), but the most important is the quality of the commute, I have not even worry once about battery life, it is always 80% every morning, and 60% when coming home, no more gas station, i have not use a supper charger once!, and did i mention the quality of the commute? autopilot and FSD are game changers in my quality of life.

 

[Newman]

Even if I agreed to use the roof the cost for a system to support the summer load was about $30,000 plus. Tax credits would have helped but it was hard to consider a 15-20 year payback.

Here down under it is more like $4k and 2 year payback. It's all a matter of responsible government policy.