Pure Electric Vehicles

[Dialectic]

To me, you sound like an EV hater, or maybe you just dislike smug EV owners. But we EV owners have good reason to be smug. We are helping to reduce gasoline addiction and reduce pollutions (tailpipe, heat, noise) caused by obsolete gasoline powered junk.

I'm totally agnostic. If I were buying a car today, I would probably buy an EV or a PHEV. When I last bought a car in early '22, few EVs were on the lot in the NYC area, and the model of EV that I wanted had a dealer markup of $45,000. (Had I bought that EV, I would have lost $100K by now on taxes, depreciation, and of course the lost dealer markup, so I'm glad I did not!)

I'm intimately familiar with traffic conditions in the City. Neither myself, my family, or anyone that we know has ever run out of fuel, gas or electric while driving there, in metro New York generally (including driving to Newark Airport. Ditto for London and Paris where I have relatives.

You've never witnessed an undamaged Tesla slowly losing speed and rolling to a stop on the shoulder on the highways around NYC? I don't see it every day, but I've seen it more than once, especially in winter. I have assumed that that these vehicles are coasting to a stop because of a loss of battery power, but I cannot be certain.

If they weren't producing so much pollution it would have been funny, a bunch of losers.

The tragedy of fossil fuels is not that they are produced and consumed by losers. On the contrary, the busiest, most productive, and most economically successful people I know voraciously consume fossil fuels. The most effective businessperson I have ever met (you have heard of him and almost certainly think he is the spawn of Satan) is in the oil business.

To me, you sound like an EV hater, or maybe you just dislike smug EV owners. But we EV owners have good reason to be smug. We are helping to reduce gasoline addiction and reduce pollutions (tailpipe, heat, noise) caused by obsolete gasoline powered junk.

The EV is the automotive equivalent of ordering a double bacon cheeseburger, a mountain of slippery fries cooked in trans fat, and a Diet Coke while believing that the aspartame somehow renders nugatory the damage inflicted by the slop in the bag.

I wish you well.

 

[Salt]

I'm totally agnostic. If I were buying a car today, I would probably buy an EV or a PHEV. When I last bought a car in early '22, few EVs were on the lot in the NYC area, and the model of EV that I wanted had a dealer markup of $45,000. (Had I bought that EV, I would have lost $100K by now on taxes, depreciation, and of course the lost dealer markup, so I'm glad I did not!)


You've never witnessed an undamaged Tesla slowly losing speed and rolling to a stop on the shoulder on the highways around NYC? I don't see it every day, but I've seen it more than once, especially in winter. I have assumed that that these vehicles are coasting to a stop because of a loss of battery power, but I cannot be certain.


The tragedy of fossil fuels is not that they are produced and consumed by losers. On the contrary, the busiest, most productive, and most economically successful people I know voraciously consume fossil fuels. The most effective businessperson I have ever met (you have heard of him and almost certainly think he is the spawn of Satan) is in the oil business.

The EV is the automotive equivalent of ordering a double bacon cheeseburger, a mountain of slippery fries cooked in trans fat, and a Diet Coke while believing that the aspartame somehow renders nugatory the damage inflicted by the slop in the bag.

I wish you well.

You're missing the actually progressions in battery technology.
For me it was a no-go for Lithium and others, that craves holes into earth, what made me very suspicious.
But there are new technologies in the near future, like sodium instead of lithium, and after that even more...
But all these futures couldn't be realised without investment into the what is now.
So, where to go?

 

[Timcognito]

Hey I just found this thread and own a 2025 Hyundai Ioniq 5 EV and love it. 320 mile range, 0-60 mph in less than 6sec, tons of room I'm 6'2" tall and 240 lbs, and with the seats down it has the room of the the bed of the Toyota pickup bed it replaced (not as tall). On a fast charger it charges in 18 min 10-80% so that and range are the only downsides. Being retired I rarely charge away from home and easily charges over night. As an ME I know the electric motor is superior to ICE and the low CG makes handling terrific. It took a while to understand the screen controls but no time to love the dead quiet interior when enjoying music and the safety systems stopping when baking up and someone with a shopping cart shows up. Maintenance is vacuuming/washing, wipers, tires and brakes, that's it after coating it with graphene. Our other car is PHEV and with gasoline in California over $5.50/gal we are set. Once range gets to 400 miles and full charge under 10 minutes I'm can not see ever going back.

 

[Petrushka]

I'm totally agnostic. If I were buying a car today, I would probably buy an EV or a PHEV. When I last bought a car in early '22, few EVs were on the lot in the NYC area, and the model of EV that I wanted had a dealer markup of $45,000. (Had I bought that EV, I would have lost $100K by now on taxes, depreciation, and of course the lost dealer markup, so I'm glad I did not!)


You've never witnessed an undamaged Tesla slowly losing speed and rolling to a stop on the shoulder on the highways around NYC? I don't see it every day, but I've seen it more than once, especially in winter. I have assumed that that these vehicles are coasting to a stop because of a loss of battery power, but I cannot be certain.


The tragedy of fossil fuels is not that they are produced and consumed by losers. On the contrary, the busiest, most productive, and most economically successful people I know voraciously consume fossil fuels. The most effective businessperson I have ever met (you have heard of him and almost certainly think he is the spawn of Satan) is in the oil business.

The EV is the automotive equivalent of ordering a double bacon cheeseburger, a mountain of slippery fries cooked in trans fat, and a Diet Coke while believing that the aspartame somehow renders nugatory the damage inflicted by the slop in the bag.

I wish you well.

NYC has few homeowners per capita, so people can’t charge at home. I see half a dozen Teslas every time I get groceries, and I’ve never seen one at the side of the road. My community has a high percentage of second home New Yorkers, so they are richer than average and inclined toward environmentalism. This is what it takes to support new tech.

Availability of charging is an issue for individuals.

 

[mhardy6647]

I have too much range anxiety, else I'd buy an EV in a... ahem... flash.
We've owned a hybrid, and really liked it, but they are complicated beasties. In some respect, they're the worst of both worlds. The pure-play EV makes much sense; as far as the basic power train, they're delightfully simple -- and powerful.

I did buy an electric (lithium battery, that is) lawnmower a few weeks ago to cut the trim around here. So far, I am very favorably impressed with it.
Since virtually all of our power is provided by our photovoltaic systems, I do like electric-powered stuff -- at least in the abstract.

 

[Newman]

[to Dialectic] To me, you sound like an EV hater

I'm totally agnostic... [then, 3 paragraphs later]...The EV is the automotive equivalent of ordering a double bacon cheeseburger, a mountain of slippery fries cooked in trans fat, and a Diet Coke while believing that the aspartame somehow renders nugatory the damage inflicted by the slop in the bag.

Yeah no, you are an EV hater, obviously, from your own words above.

 

[AudioJester]

The black mass recycling tech is getting better. Not sure how efficient it is though.

Replacement batteries for EV are also dropping in cost rapidly.

 

[jhaider]

I have too much range anxiety, else I'd buy an EV in a... ahem... flash.
We've owned a hybrid, and really liked it, but they are complicated beasties. In some respect, they're the worst of both worlds. The pure-play EV makes much sense; as far as the basic power train, they're delightfully simple -- and powerful.

This is so obvious, but I’m amazed at how few people seem to understand it. A prehistoric algae corpse crematorium lashed to a propulsive battery means more weight, less cargo/passenger space, and more to go wrong.

 

[BJL]

You're missing the actually progressions in battery technology.
For me it was a no-go for Lithium and others, that craves holes into earth, what made me very suspicious.
But there are new technologies in the near future, like sodium instead of lithium, and after that even more...
But all these futures couldn't be realised without investment into the what is now.
So, where to go?

If you can get past the paywall to Bloomberg NEF - they have done detailed studies on sources for EV materials, and carbon impact of EVs. At the time that I bought the Tesla (2023) the materials sourcing for U.S. made Tesla vehicles was low impact, including the batteries. I don't recall why, but in addition to the incredible drive train, Bloomberg's evaluation was a deciding factor (as well as the usual, price, availability etc.) But I do understand your point on Lithium mining. On the other hand, oil well drilling, delivery, refining, is nothing to be happy about.

 

[BJL]

The tragedy of fossil fuels is not that they are produced and consumed by losers. On the contrary, the busiest, most productive, and most economically successful people I know voraciously consume fossil fuels. The most effective businessperson I have ever met (you have heard of him and almost certainly think he is the spawn of Satan) is in the oil business.

That someone is an effective in business, does not mean that they use good judgment in other areas. A rich person driving an obsolete technology gas sucking vehicle is a loser, so far as cars are concerned.

 

[Timcognito]

Far from it. I merely decline to recognize a high-footprint, short-lived commodity as a valid passport to preening moral ascendancy.

The value of the combination renewable energy, that comes out the sky for free with battery storage and goes on site into wires then any structure in the modern world is intuitively obvious to the most casual of observers over the cost of drilling, refining, multiple transports, facilities, and middlemen involved in fossil fuels. Oh there is the environment too. Not sure about moral ascendancy as that is hard to measure.

 

[amper42]

The value of the combination renewable energy, that comes out the sky for free with battery storage and goes on site into wires then any structure in the modern world is intuitively obvious to the most casual of observers over the cost of drilling, refining, multiple transports, facilities, and middlemen involved in fossil fuels. Oh there is the environment too. Not sure about moral ascendancy as that is hard to measure.

Value really comes down to individual usage, cost.

I looked at EV but the cost even for the Chevy current models is $38,000 on the low end. Plus, in my state there is an 8% sales tax, substantial registration fees and insurance for the EV is much more than my existing car. Even without the extra wear on tires the comparison cost equation is really lopsided - especially for a low mileage user.

I only drive about 3000 miles a year. It's hard to make the EV purchase make sense in this case. I had AI add all the costs up comparing keeping my existing car versus purchasing the EV. The EV was more than 3x the cost per mile in my limited use. No enticement to move in that direction based on the numbers.

 

[Dialectic]

Value really comes down to individual usage, cost.

I looked at EV but the cost even for the Chevy current models is $38,000 on the low end. Plus, in my state there is an 8% sales tax, substantial registration fees and insurance for the EV is much more than my existing car. Even without the extra wear on tires the comparison cost equation is really lopsided - especially for a low mileage user.

I only drive about 3000 miles a year. It's hard to make the EV purchase make sense in this case. I had AI add all the costs up comparing keeping my existing car versus purchasing the EV. The EV was more than 3x the cost per mile in my limited use. No enticement to move in that direction based on the numbers.

It is difficult to dispute that, in the United States, neither the economics nor the carbon math currently favor EVs for low-miles drivers. I'm sure the fanatics will try anyway.

 

[BJL]

It is difficult to dispute that, in the United States, neither the economics nor the carbon math currently favor EVs for low-miles drivers. I'm sure the fanatics will try anyway.

Astonishing ignorance. I'm a lower milage driver (6k year), and the economics of the Tesla Y have been great for me. In three years, I have rotated the tires once each year, (as would be true of any car.) And that is all. No maintenance costs whatsoever. Zero. No degradation of the high voltage battery. I expect I'll be driving this car for at least 15 years. When I charge at home, it costs me about 2 cents/mile to drive. The stock tires supplied (Pirelli) are in fine condition.

And as a bonus, I have a high performance car, with thrilling acceleration, that handles like a sports car, has a superior heat pump HVAC with HEPA filter, doesn't pollute the atmosphere, doesn't generate much heat, and is nearly silent, just the soft purr of the motors.

No obsolete gas junker could possibly meet the great value of a Model Y (as much as I detest Elon, that is the way it is.)

PS Edit, for those living is the US who care about such things, my car was made in the USA, (Austin, TX) by American workers, with materials over 70% sourced from the USA, Canada and Mexico.

 

[Timcognito]

Yes any new car investment vs existing good condition car EV or ICEV is a win for keeping it. But for new its different proposition. I have solar panels and whole house battery and in 2024 paid $217 for the whole year. I too don't drive that much but it doesn't look like its going to much more with the EV. My solar system has paid for its initial cost starting next month and it near free lunch after that. Economics of renewables trounces fossil fuel.

 

[Imakeller]

It is difficult to dispute that, in the United States, neither the economics nor the carbon math currently favor EVs for low-miles drivers. I'm sure the fanatics will try anyway.

Oh, I don’t know, I think low-mileage drivers can appreciate what EVs have to offer as much as anyone else.

 

[Imakeller]

Yes any new car investment vs existing good condition car EV or ICEV is a win for keeping it. But for new its different proposition. I have solar panels and whole house battery and in 2024 paid $217 for the whole year. I too don't drive that much but it doesn't look like it’s going to much more with the EV. My solar system has paid for its initial cost starting next month and it near free lunch after that. Economics of renewables trounces fossil fuel.

I have a net-zero goal too. Making a major investment in home solar and batteries. Also looking forward to moving from a Chevy Volt to a high range BEV soon.

 

[Timcognito]

I have a net-zero goal too. Making a major investment in home solar and batteries. Also looking forward to moving from a Chevy Volt to a high range BEV soon.

The only rub is the tech keeps improving in cars. Range has gone from 200 to 300 miles in just a couple of years which is fine for commuting. The new BMWs are touting 400. So this on a deprecating asset. Not so much on the house an appreciating asset where you expect to use it for many more years.

 

[Imakeller]

The only rub is the tech keeps improving in cars. Range has gone from 200 to 300 miles in just a couple of years which is fine for commuting. The new BMWs are touting 400. So this on a deprecating asset. Not so much on the house an appreciating asset where you expect to use it for many more years.

I feel like the technology has matured with home solar, batteries, and EVs, to a point where it’s a great time to make a long term purchase. Yes, things will continue progressing, but my home system and EV won’t become unusable.

 

[BJL]

The only rub is the tech keeps improving in cars. Range has gone from 200 to 300 miles in just a couple of years which is fine for commuting. The new BMWs are touting 400. So this on a deprecating asset. Not so much on the house an appreciating asset where you expect to use it for many more years.

I don't think of my car as an asset at all. I think of it as something to use until it dies.