Pure Electric Vehicles

[BJL]

A couple of new EU rules (tyres needs less wear, and increased weight for drivers licence classes) will have an impact, the latter because it opens the EV market for another driver segment. Towing capacit was the previous issue - quite a few wants/needs good towing capabilities, and some businesses have waited years to go EV as they weren't made to pull enough.

3: Weight and tyre/road wear (I'm a sinner, I prefer Diesel SUV due to a.o pt 4)
4: Wherever relevant - contigency and e.g. roads which closes due to bad weather and results in being stuck in a car for 12, 24 or 36 hours.

If neither of these points are issues wherever people are, EV would be the better option just about anywhere.

...as long as the owners don't give a f**k about own and other's privacy and information security.

To a couple of your points.

Many EVs have decent towing capacity. The Tesla Y can tow up to 3500 pounds, you need to order with a tow connector, or have one installed at a somewhat higher price after purchase.

I take that EVs are heavier, maybe this is more of a European issue, because cars in the US tend to be larger and heavier. The Tesla Y is about 4400 pounds, somewhat heavier than a similar car, but not a lot more than many others. My understanding is that by observing and maintaining the correct tire pressure, tire wear is minimized, I don't drive much so I can't speak to this personally, but I do top off the tires when they drop more than a couple of pounds from optimal.

I have noted that in emergency road closure circumstances, all cars are susceptible to running out of fuel, and thus potential exposure to extreme weather. The Tesla heat pump is efficient, but of course, I have no concrete idea how long it will operate for any given battery level. Perhaps someone has calculated that. When I have checked the cars energy monitor (very occasionally) it does not seem that the HVAC draws much, by percentage (usually .1%)

For privacy, here other EV owners can chime in: The Tesla Y can be set to wall off all data (including all video recording) and keep it in the car. It quite easy to entirely disconnect the car from the internet and for the extra paranoid, you can pull the SIM card. If others are worried about my local (in car) SSD recording what goes on around, well, I am the least of your worries (unless you hit or vandalize my car, in which case, smile, you are on candid camera.)

 

[dtaylo1066]

Towing with an EV in general is an efficiency killer and thus a range killer. At present, if you are towing, I would go ICE.

EVs do weigh more due to the obvious weight of the battery. This can affect tire wear if one is not careful. New EV tires are getting better. The heavier a vehicle the more road wear it creates, though you really have to get into the weight of heavy trucks and semis before wearing of road surfaces is an issue. If you look into the data or road surface wear, semi-trucks are the main cause of major highway and, particularly, Interstate road wear.

 

[Soundproof]

To a couple of your points.

Many EVs have decent towing capacity. The Tesla Y can tow up to 3500 pounds, you need to order with a tow connector, or have one installed at a somewhat higher price after purchase.

I take that EVs are heavier, maybe this is more of a European issue, because cars in the US tend to be larger and heavier. The Tesla Y is about 4400 pounds, somewhat heavier than a similar car, but not a lot more than many others. My understanding is that by observing and maintaining the correct tire pressure, tire wear is minimized, I don't drive much so I can't speak to this personally, but I do top off the tires when they drop more than a couple of pounds from optimal.

I have noted that in emergency road closure circumstances, all cars are susceptible to running out of fuel, and thus potential exposure to extreme weather. The Tesla heat pump is efficient, but of course, I have no concrete idea how long it will operate for any given battery level. Perhaps someone has calculated that. When I have checked the cars energy monitor (very occasionally) it does not seem that the HVAC draws much, by percentage (usually .1%)

For privacy, here other EV owners can chime in: The Tesla Y can be set to wall off all data (including all video recording) and keep it in the car. It quite easy to entirely disconnect the car from the internet and for the extra paranoid, you can pull the SIM card. If others are worried about my local (in car) SSD recording what goes on around, well, I am the least of your worries (unless you hit or vandalize my car, in which case, smile, you are on candid camera.)

For those who wants/needs proper towing for a "regular car" and a "regular licence" it is seen as an disadvantage if the car can't pull 3500kg - abt 7700 lbs. You are right about market differences. The availability of EV's being palatable for that usage is quite recent.

Some central roads are having convoy driving in risky weather, snow drifts fast and it doesn't take much wind. The general advise is full tank / fully charged battery, winter clothing and a recommendation to have sleeping bags in the car. Now. This is not typical, it is quite specific, and not really relevant in most of the world. I just point it out to illustrate some caveats for those who belive EV is the solution to everything everywhere.

I just wanted to point out that there are issues with security and privacy. You'll have some work to do to find clean fossile cars aswell. The Grenadier is possibly one excemption. No intention to cause another discussion - but it is an issue, for another thread.

 

[pablolie]

6-7KW public chargers are useless other than at a job site with longtime plug in. ...

I'd call that an overstatement. The charging infrastructure in Silicon Valley seems to be 98% <7kW and yet EV adoption here is very high.
And companies limit charging time to 3 hours, that is around 20kWh. Enough to get home for most. But most certainly not enough to even remotely fill 100kWh batteries that are quite common now.

 

[pablolie]

... .
With the car culture, vast number of cars and the distances in the US, I'm rather convinced you'll need upgrades of the distribution grid, energy production and then some, to make a complete transition to EV - if that's what people eventually wants.

No chance, we've had 35% EV and 98% EV registration (new cars, 2026) with 6-7kW charging along the roads. Zero chance.....

I wouldn't be so sure. The vast majority of EVs seem to be second cars around here, which limits that grid concern some. That said, I feel that is shifting... even with most charging being done at <7kW...

I do have an ICE car but barely use it.

 

[xanalog]

A meaningful "pure EV" (without re: ICE) conversation cannot be had in a forum, where many of the particulars are part of our foundational TTL (TabooTopicList).

Geopolitical, economical, financial, environmental, social, cultural consequences should not be ignored but must be. Thus, it makes "pure EV" posts meaningless, w/o due consideration to such particulars.

I tend to favor competitive and free-market driven economies (demand/supply/demand) but this "Pure EV" market/industry is anything but...
And we are currently witnessing the negative international consequences of this EV market push, whether it is in Japan, or SK, or EU, or UK or US.

If you think you are the happy winner because you love your "pure EV"; China thanks you!
I am not so beholden to them and I am not so sure that you are the winner.
Maybe at a future time, we can also discuss the consequences of another purely connected device, that sooner or later you may come to despise for your freedom' implications.

Blast away, I can take it.

 

[pablolie]

A meaningful "pure EV" (without re: ICE) conversation cannot be had in a forum, where many of the particulars are part of our foundational TTL (TabooTopicList).

Geopolitical, economical, financial, environmental, social, cultural consequences should not be ignored but must be. Thus, it makes "pure EV" posts meaningless, w/o due consideration to such particulars.

I tend to favor competitive and free-market driven economies (demand/supply/demand) but this "Pure EV" market/industry is anything but...
And we are currently witnessing the negative international consequences of this EV market push, whether it is in Japan, or SK, or EU, or UK or US.

If you think you are the happy winner because you love your "pure EV"; China thanks you!
I am not so beholden to them and I am not so sure that you are the winner.
Maybe at a future time, we can also discuss the consequences of another purely connected device, that sooner or later you may come to despise for your freedom' implications.

Blast away, I can take it.

The conversation I have followed here doesn't make the point that EVs are "better". I find it interesting to see what the thoughts and priorities are from other members, other geographies. I am an EV owner and haven't claimed EVs are "better" even once.
The market will offer choices and customers will decide what's better for them based on many different factors.

 

[BJL]

A meaningful "pure EV" (without re: ICE) conversation cannot be had in a forum, where many of the particulars are part of our foundational TTL (TabooTopicList).

Geopolitical, economical, financial, environmental, social, cultural consequences should not be ignored but must be. Thus, it makes "pure EV" posts meaningless, w/o due consideration to such particulars.

I tend to favor competitive and free-market driven economies (demand/supply/demand) but this "Pure EV" market/industry is anything but...
And we are currently witnessing the negative international consequences of this EV market push, whether it is in Japan, or SK, or EU, or UK or US.

If you think you are the happy winner because you love your "pure EV"; China thanks you!
I am not so beholden to them and I am not so sure that you are the winner.
Maybe at a future time, we can also discuss the consequences of another purely connected device, that sooner or later you may come to despise for your freedom' implications.

Blast away, I can take it.

I don't understand your post at all. The conversation here has been as wide ranging as the participants have desired.

I in particular do not understand your remark about "the consequences of another purely connected device." My car is not connected to anything and it is an EV.

 

[Soundproof]

I wouldn't be so sure. The vast majority of EVs seem to be second cars around here, which limits that grid concern some. That said, I feel that is shifting... even with most charging being done at <7kW...

I do have an ICE car but barely use it.

For commuting and shopping around the block, I'm pretty sure that's fine, and no need for big power packs if that's how a particular car is being used. But cities are being "rearranged" for fewer cars, more public transport, cycling to work and jogging. Thus it's quite common not to use cars to get to work. I worked in an area like that, and sold my Jeep because I hardly ever used it, 3 decades ago. Didn't have time to go to my cabin either, and got rid of it. IF I had the time and today's EV, I had a 5 1/2 hr drive to the cabin (no electricity)...

...what defines what people need/wants tend to be not the everyday stuff, but where they go and what they do when they are off. Many goes to their cabins 2-3-5 or even 6 hrs drive away, and that tend to define their need for a car. People don't really want to stop for charging, thus big battery packs is the solution to that. Modern, high standard cabins will have 22 kW chargers.

Road warriors who sees the economi in EV's would have big batteries and fast charging. But no one will visit a charging station with 6-7 kW. unless they absolutely have to. No chance. Not in the cities, not on the road

 

[Timcognito]

EVs are better in many ways especially for daily commutes.

• In extremely hot or cold climates you charge at home most of time
• Energy it uses is cheaper and when combined with solar panels/home battery can be free.
• Initial costs are getting close to ICE and long term much cheaper to operate
• Maintenance is much less and less frequent.
• Internal and external noise much less
• No toxic emissions
• Power and acceleration excellent and are nearly linear from zero to full
• Many less moving and wearing parts, and motor smaller
• In some platforms the battery can be used to power other devices

 

[Soundproof]

The conversation I have followed here doesn't make the point that EVs are "better". I find it interesting to see what the thoughts and prio ies are from. other members, other geographies. I am an EV owner and haven't claimed EVs are "better" even once.
The market will offer choices and customers will decide what's better for them based on many different factors.

People will buy what they believe is most beneficial to their usage and economy, and they tend to make the right choice for themselves. I follow you on it being interesting to learn how others sees this, and I find it beneficial to be contradicted. I don't mind at all changing my perspective and opinion, and discussions like these helps me doing that.

 

[dtaylo1066]

People will buy what they believe is most beneficial to their usage and economy, and they tend to make the right choice for themselves. I follow you on it being interesting to learn how others sees this, and I find it beneficial to be contradicted. I don't mind at all changing my perspective and opinion, and discussions like these helps me doing that.

Yes, in a mostly free market we have the beauty of choice and personal opinion. Just as in audio gear, when it comes to cars, buy what you like and suits your needs.

I have an EV and an older ICE car. Each has their place in my garage and life.

 

[pablolie]

.. . But no one will visit a charging station with 6-7 kW. unless they absolutely have to. No chance. Not in the cities, not on the road

I do. Then again, my circumstances are mine. My car has a ~140 mile E range, but unlimited range if I refill the engine generator every 120 miles or so. A capability I only use in long trips (as to the cabin).

 

[Soundproof]

I do. Then again, my circumstances are mine. My car has a ~140 mile E range, but unlimited range if I refill the engine generator every 120 miles or so. A capability I only use in long trips (as to the cabin).

Gasguzzling. You are doomed

 

[pablolie]

Gasguzzling. You are doomed

:-D But only when circumstances demand. Over 97% of the time I am electrical only. And as I said before, the Piaggio MP3 530 is my everyday transportation... gets well over 55mpg and Euro 5+ so consider myself pretty eco.

And charging as we speak while I have a glass of Sauvignon Blanc in the California sun.

 

[pablolie]

In thinking more about this topic, I go back to the engineering rule that you always end of optimizing for two out of three requirements that we are always asked for: make it the best in the induatry, make it faster than anyone else, and make it cheap.
These 3 requirements are always at total odds with each other, so you have to compromise and pick two out of three to focus on.
One aspect of it is that, these days - as consumers- if we only support "cheap", we are collectively undermining our own economic survival mid-term, because "some" other economies do not bother to operate under the same principles of fair market competition.
Also applies to audio, very evidently so.

 

[beefkabob]

I used to fly 50 years ago. It was fairly straightforward and quick. Nowadays the airport experience is so unpleasant and slow I don't (and am aware of how much I have contributed to climate change being on a plane weekly for decades so it is partly guilt).
A flight around Europe nowadays is likely to be more time in airports than on a plane.

This is true. 9/11 was a gamechanger for sure.

 

[beefkabob]

The old charging stations may be rated 50 kW, but no one would use those unless no other option. What people expect would be 150-350 kW depending on car and provider.
Chargers for homes would be typically 11 kW, up to 22 kW.

My home chargers are 7.2kwh max. I think one of them is turned down from that, though. Also, home chargers really aren't. The charger is on the car. The wall thing is a fancy switch.

 

[beefkabob]

How many of you EV guys are true travellers? I'll be interested to see what EV makers have to offer this segment? At the moment it looks like an unaddressed area.

I mean, the full EV becomes a slam dunk solution (for the homebodies who buzz around their local district doing commutes, shopping and services, social catchups and a weekend buzz in the hills) once the initial purchase price differential doesn't need to be addressed with long-term ownership calculations full of assumptions. And we are now seeing such EVs (well, exclusively from China at the moment).

But the real world has got some really wide open spaces out there, and people who want to spend serious time in it. Maybe one day.

You mean long distance car travelers? It's boring as hell. I have done a 1200 mile car trip. Over two weeks. In Europe. America? A whole bunch of boring. Then more and more. That's what planes are for. Am I not a real traveler? How many countries have I been to?

 

[Newman]

Sounds more like putting notches in your belt than travelling. I'll put you down as a 'No'.