Pure Electric Vehicles

[Soundproof]

To be fair the pikes peak hill limb record car is an EV. Purpose built situation.

I’ve yet to drive an EV that offered a better enthusiasts driving experience. (I say yet because I’m confident at some point the tech will get there, especially weight) But most people aren’t enthusiasts. EVs do arguably offer a better a to b appliance experience for most people. But they are generally pretty boring to drive. And I’ve owned 2 of the best driving ones on the market. I’ve done track days in the macan and the taycan. Both were killing their tires after 2 press laps. They are fast. They shoot out if the corner. But they are also heavy and tires can’t hide physics.

Guess many of those purchasing Taycans when they were excempt from taxes didn't have a lot of experience with performance cars. It was a "cheap" ticket to a new Porsche, space for wife and kids + weekends at their cabins, thus it was possible to defend the purchase as "common sense" and get impressive performance/handling in a everyday car.

If you had a history with performance cars your perception would be different. The first time perfomance car customers were impressed.

As for tires and wear, definately more of an issue with EV's for users who actively explore the performance, not sure what the typical user experiences, 50-70% less km or so depending upon this and that?

Mind you, MB AMG have had issues with tyres for some models too.

 

[Frank Dernie]

To be fair the pikes peak hill limb record car is an EV. Purpose built situation.

I’ve yet to drive an EV that offered a better enthusiasts driving experience. (I say yet because I’m confident at some point the tech will get there, especially weight) But most people aren’t enthusiasts. EVs do arguably offer a better a to b appliance experience for most people. But they are generally pretty boring to drive. And I’ve owned 2 of the best driving ones on the market. I’ve done track days in the macan and the taycan. Both were killing their tires after 2 press laps. They are fast. They shoot out if the corner. But they are also heavy and tires can’t hide physics.

As I was pottering home from fishing on a lovely twisty country road in my Taycan Cross Turismo, generally sticking to the speed limits, an older model Porsche 911 turbo caught me in a 30 limit and as we came onto the open road he overtook, ignoring the speed limit, as I expected. After about ½ mile I wondered if I could catch him since the options I had chosen, biggest tyres, torque vectoring and rear wheel steer makes mine handle better than other Taycans I have driven.
Anyway the only time I needed full throttle was catching him, once I did I was faster than him everywhere and he was taking great risks cutting corners to try to pull away whereas I could stay with him safely staying in my lane.
I let him go once we got to a straight section and he was prepared to break the speed limit by more than I considered wise (by around 75mph).

All internal combustion engines have a poor power band, since they rely on oxygen flow to produce anything.

If you look at tyre characteristics, as I have been doing for 50 years in the conceptual design of F1 cars, you can compensate for weight to a surprisingly large extent if you get a big enough tyre.
If you only have small tyres weight is a major disadvantage but big tyres are lossy both mechanically and aerodynamically so in a world og range obsession for EVs most electric cars are under-tyred.

 

[Frank Dernie]

If you had a history with performance cars your perception would be different. The first time perfomance car customers were impressed.

I have been driving performance cars for decades.
I was massively impressed by the instant throttle response and wide power band of the Taycan and ordered one a couple of days later despite it being a bit too big (I still hate its size). There were no tax exemptions, I bought it at list price for cash. It is the best car I have ever owned.
I have a Ferrari.
The Taycan is better for fast road driving, the Ferrari is better for a track day. I don't do track days any more, so the Ferrari is in storage. I would sell it but it is appreciating in value, so I keep it for now.

 

[Frank Dernie]

It was a "cheap" ticket to a new Porsche

FWIW I have test driven loads of Porsches over the last 30 years but there was always an alternative I preferred until the Taycan, which is peerless IMO so it was the first Porsche I have bought and was not cheap by any measure!

 

[Soundproof]

FWIW I have test driven loads of Porsches over the last 30 years but there was always an alternative I preferred until the Taycan, which is peerless IMO so it was the first Porsche I have bought and was not cheap by any measure!

Good for you!

Taycans benefited massively form zero taxes on EV's and therefore were the ticket into that segment at much lower cost than combustion competitors. Before that, but to a somewhat lesser extent, the Panamera shooting brake hybrids was doing really well in terms of sales. As soon as the tax benefits disappeared for the hybrids, it sunk like a rock and the shooting brake disappeared. Courtesy of pricing AND Taycan shooting brake which had the zero tax benefits. No Porsche is cheap for average joe, but relative to the competition, Taycans were the "cheap" ticket to perfomance.

 

[Frank Dernie]

Taycans benefited massively form zero taxes on EV's and therefore were the ticket into that segment at much lower cost than combustion competitors.

Where?
Not here.

 

[Frank Dernie]

Before that, but to a somewhat lesser extent, the Panamera shooting brake hybrids was doing really well in terms of sales.

Tried one in 2018, it was heavy and big, got a simpler hybrid instead.
The Taycan was more expensive here, but a much, much better car.

 

[Soundproof]

Tried one in 2018, it was heavy and big, got a simpler hybrid instead.
The Taycan was more expensive here, but a much, much better car.

Taycan/Panamera shooting brakes don't fit my usage scenarios anyway. When I need space, I need more space, and rough roads has to be taken into account. But lovely cars they are.

I never fancied hybrids by any brand. Too complicated, but the Porsche turbo solution makes sense to me.

EU are increasing the weight limits for drivers licences by the way, has to be done. And by that, the weight/load limits will be changed for SUV's as well. Might be that some already registered cars can be recertified for heavier loads. If not, SUV's with the present max loads will loose value in the 2nd hand market.

 

[napfkuchen]

To keep in shape, I mostly ride with the motor off or on its lowest setting, but during the steep climbs, it has been a game changer for me.

I regularly go on e-MTB rides with my father (76 years old). This allows each of us to easily manage our own exertion levels by adjusting the motor assistance. We both finish the ride without overexerting ourselves, despite our differing fitness levels.
To ensure that endurance training is beneficial, you need to keep an eye on your heart rate. Unless you are a professional athlete or under the age of 25, you should focus on aerobic endurance (80–90% of your capacity). The heart rate threshold required for this is surprisingly low, especially when age is taken into account. So cycling in hilly terrain often leads to a higher heart rate and prolongs the recovery time, which increases with age anyway.
That is why I "prescribed" a heart rate monitor to my father. He sticks to the recommended heart rate zone and - as a result - has no trouble cycling for two to three hours a day, several days in a row. Provided, of course, that he uses/increases the motor assistance on the climbs, just as you described.

 

[Spyerx]

Guess many of those purchasing Taycans when they were excempt from taxes didn't have a lot of experience with performance cars. It was a "cheap" ticket to a new Porsche, space for wife and kids + weekends at their cabins, thus it was possible to defend the purchase as "common sense" and get impressive performance/handling in a everyday car.

If you had a history with performance cars your perception would be different. The first time perfomance car customers were impressed.

As for tires and wear, definately more of an issue with EV's for users who actively explore the performance, not sure what the typical user experiences, 50-70% less km or so depending upon this and that?

Mind you, MB AMG have had issues with tyres for some models too.

I’ve owned over 30 911s. Have 100s of track days, competed in time trials. So I’m pretty familiar with sports cars and Porsches. According to local dealer, most buyers were already Porsche owners. And despite the $7500 (US federal at the time) tax credit, none were / are ‘cheap’. Sorry, nobody is buying these as a a deal. Used maybe.

There are zero tires that can compensate for the weight of these EVs when pushed hard. They get super greasy fast. To be fair, if you’re getting to that point on the street you shouldn’t be driving on the street. My first set of Taycan Pirelli lasted me 8k miles and they were to the cords with normal street driving. The Bridgestone I replaced them with did wear better.

It was a good daily, mine was a cross tour, but had horrible reliability and while a great road car, was not a sports cars.

My wife wont go back to a gas car, she likes the much lower service interval and lack of gas stations/charge at home or office.

 

[Soundproof]

I’ve owned over 30 911s. Have 100s of track days, competed in time trials. So I’m pretty familiar with sports cars and Porsches. According to local dealer, most buyers were already Porsche owners. And despite the $7500 (US federal at the time) tax credit, none were / are ‘cheap’. Sorry, nobody is buying these as a a deal. Used maybe.

There are zero tires that can compensate for the weight of these EVs when pushed hard. They get super greasy fast. To be fair, if you’re getting to that point on the street you shouldn’t be driving on the street. My first set of Taycan Pirelli lasted me 8k miles and they were to the cords with normal street driving. The Bridgestone I replaced them with did wear better.

It was a good daily, mine was a cross tour, but had horrible reliability and while a great road car, was not a sports cars.

My wife wont go back to a gas car, she likes the much lower service interval and lack of gas stations/charge at home or office.

Zero taxes wasn't a deal or a discount. It was up to around USD 120.000 less in taxes compared to equivalent performance/weight/value for combustion engines. No one said anything about discounts. Why would they need to, those cars were manufactured to order. Anyway, the tax exemptions are gone, target percentage EV's of new sales has been reached by a landslide, the market do fine on it's own with 90% EV market share. Taycan was still a lot of money, but cheap compared to combustion. Nothing more into it than that. Naturally, the market changed when taxes were added.

 

[pablolie]

The novelty of EV acceleration wears off quickly, especially after you blow $1.5k every 10k miles, which is incredibly easy with aggressive acceleration on EVs (at least with mine). I switched off sports mode and use eco mode on mine to prevent that, and it still accelerates well enough... but handling is just OK. My motorcycles are much more fun.

 

[Willem]

I tried to put a geothermal cooling system in my house because the ground temps here stay around 70–72°F and a simple closed‑loop water setup would’ve worked perfectly. The equipment was about twice the cost of a conventional HVAC system, but the long‑term efficiency made it worth considering.

What killed the project wasn’t the drilling or the engineering. It was the permitting. After designing it and spending close to a year with the building department, the required environmental studies and impact assessments were quoted at more than $150,000 before a single hole could be drilled and no guarantees it would be approved. That’s more than I paid for 4 fully installed 5‑ton 26 SEER conventional units.

Once the regulatory costs were added, geothermal ended up costing more than double a standard system with nothing actually installed yet. I went conventional not because geothermal didn’t make sense, but because the process treated a small residential closed‑loop system like a major environmental hazard.

Curious if anyone else has run into this or if some states handle residential geothermal with a lighter touch.

No issues in the Netherlands.

 

[Soundproof]

The novelty of EV acceleration wears off quickly, especially after you blow $1.5k every 10k miles, which is incredibly easy with aggressive acceleration on EVs (at least with mine). I switched off sports mode and use eco mode on mine to prevent that, and it still accelerates well enough... but handling is just OK. My motorcycles are much more fun.

To you. They are more fun to you. Don't get me wrong, I loved riding my bike when I was young, back roads and autobahn. But I'm done freezing my knees off or sweating like a maniac. The only use could possibly have from bikes these days is a lightweight cross for transportation or a basic scrambler to town.

As for EV's they are here to stay. Whether I favour something else or not

 

[Willem]

I have been through this exercise a couple of times now and from a cost analysis/ROI perspective, a pure EV is hard to justify. Not interested in a hybrid..what's the point of running two engine systems, even if the ICE is just used into a generator. Extra weight, extra maintenance etc.

Using several different sources, in my country I would save ~$2500 per year going the EV route (compared to ICE) but to get a comparable EV with the size/features I want (and I don't need anything big.. think Kia EV3 or similar), the EV car would cost ~$20k more.

Thus it would take ~8 years before I started to get into positive territory. At which point you probably want to move into a new car so the EV doesn't save me any money.

There are no government incentives for getting into an EV, they charge ~$1200 per year in a tax to make up for lost government tax on petrol sales and electric power is relatively expensive.

On a personal level, because of where I live I eat front tyres (need a set a year so that's $800 in additional yearly maintenance) so the extra weight and typically larger tyre spec on EV cars might mean might gets worse (although logic might say that with the battery weight being centred and lowered, this will reduce tyre scrubbing)

So would love to get into an EV but the calc's don't make sense.

Peter

In the Netherlands EVS are now about the same price as ICE cars, without subsidies.

 

[Soundproof]

In the Netherlands EVS are now about the same price as ICE cars, without subsidies.

The domestic sales in China has dropped significantly and there's a production surpluss they HAVE to export as stock is piling up and reported to be more than 1 mill cars.
Sure, import taxes has been put on Chinese EV's but there still is a surplus. AND European car industry is in serious trouble. Has to be bargains to benefit from.

 

[Willem]

The domestic sales in China has dropped significantly and there's a production surpluss they HAVE to export as stock is piling up and reported to be more than 1 mill cars.
Sure, import taxes has been put on Chinese EV's but there still is a surplus. AND European car industry is in serious trouble. Has to be bargains to benefit from.

I am not talking about Chinese cars, but about e.g. French EVs.

 

[Willem]

I am not talking about Chinese cars, but about e.g. French EVs.

Yesterday evening my son gave me a longish ride in his new Peugeot 308 E GT, a full electric car. The ride was a joy, with much better suspension comfort than any of the EVs that I have been trying out thus far in this price bracket. And as I write, the price was competitive. So what is there not to like?

 

[pablolie]

In the Netherlands EVS are now about the same price as ICE cars, without subsidies.

Plus many are total bargains in the used car market. And their wear and tear is pretty low, so risk is lower than with used ICE cars.

 

[pablolie]

To you. They are more fun to you. Don't get me wrong, I loved riding my bike when I was young, back roads and autobahn. But I'm done freezing my knees off or sweating like a maniac. The only use could possibly have from bikes these days is a lightweight cross for transportation or a basic scrambler to town.

As for EV's they are here to stay. Whether I favour something else or not

Everything I say in here is my personal experience. Always. Never claimed to be the holder of universal truths.