Pure Electric Vehicles

[Soundproof]

Common narrative, but depends what you mean by "a lot". The estimate is between 10k and 100k per year here compared to 55 million by domestic cats, and road deaths. New experiments on avoiding collisions show promise.

I am an engineer and styling is of less importance to me than engineering and as an engineer seeking efficiency all my career am psychologically incapable of considering a vehicle as awful as a SUV.


I tried the Panamera hybrid estate car in 2018 but rejected it in favour of a Toyota 600kg lighter and much more mechanically elegant.

I also rejected the 911 in the mid 90s in favour of a different make, and they are, along with most modern cars, far too wide to be of any fun.

Different kinds of birds. Reseach about windturbines and powerlines has been carried out for more than 25 years, several farms are located in migration paths, and more are planned. They will be located as planned regardless of that. The showstopper is profitability and nothing less. It is always easy with cars. Don't like it, don't buy it, don't need it, don't buy it. No sportscar makes sense beyond being toys. Their usefulness is limited to advancing technology.

 

[Salt]

Last statistics I saw was that almost 90% simply hit a window and go down dead.
So what about avoiding windows ...

 

[Spyerx]

I like my sports cars light, gas powered, and rear engined. And none of the current offerings by Porsche are that.
EVs are great daily’s provided you can charge at home. Had a Taycan for 3 years, great driving car, terrible reliability. Porsche owns it again. Wife has a macan ev, it’s been good, we have a 2027 on order and will replace that soon. As good as the porsches EV are, they are terrible value, and I say that owning 3 911s currently (mostly older ones). But I keep buying them because they are well, better than other stuff right now, but at a price.
I’m not driving an EV daily today, after the Taycan fiasco I got a cayman gts. And compared to the EV, it’s much, much cheaper to own and operate. Main difference: depreciation of EV and insurance cost of EV. My Macan EV is 2x the cost to insure my gt3rs which is worth about 6x times the value of the macan at the moment. Wild.

 

[Soundproof]

Last statistics I saw was that almost 90% simply hit a window and go down dead.
So what about avoiding windows ...

There are a lot of different causes to pick from, and most of "the sinners" have positive implications as well. Bird nets in southern europe - food. Fisheries - food and so on and so on. I am pro ocean wind turbines. Very. But profitability sinks with the ocean depths, and it conflicts with fisheries in shallow waters. Great for the fish thoug. It's protection.

The greatest problem for seabirds these days is not wind turbines. It is lack of food. North sea, Baltic sea and so on (I haven't followed news about the English channel, Irish sea and For instance sand eels and mackerel. Place windturbines where the birds fly through - catching food for their chickens, and it adds to the problem.

It's not if this or if that, it's one thing on top of another.

 

[Timcognito]

As good as the porsches EV are, they are terrible value

Check out the Hyundai Ioniq 5 N very fast and roomy

 

[Salt]

I like my sports cars light, gas powered, and rear engined. And none of the current offerings by Porsche are that.
EVs are great daily’s provided you can charge at home. Had a Taycan for 3 years, great driving car, terrible reliability. Porsche owns it again. Wife has a macan ev, it’s been good, we have a 2027 on order and will replace that soon. As good as the porsches EV are, they are terrible value, and I say that owning 3 911s currently (mostly older ones). But I keep buying them because they are well, better than other stuff right now, but at a price.
I’m not driving an EV daily today, after the Taycan fiasco I got a cayman gts. And compared to the EV, it’s much, much cheaper to own and operate. Main difference: depreciation of EV and insurance cost of EV. My Macan EV is 2x the cost to insure my gt3rs which is worth about 6x times the value of the macan at the moment. Wild.

If there's nothing else to complain about, you're more wealthy than most of us in the world... and might give a thought to contribute to reduce climate change ...

 

[Frank Dernie]

Had a Taycan for 3 years, great driving car, terrible reliability.

Mine has been fairly reliable, depreciation may be great but, obviously, I won't know until I sell it.
I have zero interest in a SUV electric or otherwise so given today's fashion not much choice.
The biggest problem it has is being far too big for roads around here (and parking spaces)

 

[BJL]

I like my sports cars light, gas powered, and rear engined. And none of the current offerings by Porsche are that.
EVs are great daily’s provided you can charge at home. Had a Taycan for 3 years, great driving car, terrible reliability. Porsche owns it again. Wife has a macan ev, it’s been good, we have a 2027 on order and will replace that soon. As good as the porsches EV are, they are terrible value, and I say that owning 3 911s currently (mostly older ones). But I keep buying them because they are well, better than other stuff right now, but at a price.
I’m not driving an EV daily today, after the Taycan fiasco I got a cayman gts. And compared to the EV, it’s much, much cheaper to own and operate. Main difference: depreciation of EV and insurance cost of EV. My Macan EV is 2x the cost to insure my gt3rs which is worth about 6x times the value of the macan at the moment. Wild.

I don't know or care much about depreciation because I am not going to sell my Tesla until it is a total loss. Sorry about your insurance, that's local issue, my liability insurance went down a lot with the Tesla, and I have no operating cost outside of rotating the tires.

The Tesla is a rear wheel drive car. The front motor only activates when I need extra power.

As far as birds and wind turbines are concerned, it's too bad, but the mortality to birds from turbines is nothing compared to the mortality to birds from global warming. This issue (bird mortality) is something promoted heavily by an American politician using is well-funded propaganda machine, who has had a multiyear temper tantrum because the Scottish government allowed turbines in view of some golf course he owns. Pathetic.

 

[fatoldgit]

I have been through this exercise a couple of times now and from a cost analysis/ROI perspective, a pure EV is hard to justify. Not interested in a hybrid..what's the point of running two engine systems, even if the ICE is just used into a generator. Extra weight, extra maintenance etc.

Using several different sources, in my country I would save ~$2500 per year going the EV route (compared to ICE) but to get a comparable EV with the size/features I want (and I don't need anything big.. think Kia EV3 or similar), the EV car would cost ~$20k more.

Thus it would take ~8 years before I started to get into positive territory. At which point you probably want to move into a new car so the EV doesn't save me any money.

There are no government incentives for getting into an EV, they charge ~$1200 per year in a tax to make up for lost government tax on petrol sales and electric power is relatively expensive.

On a personal level, because of where I live I eat front tyres (need a set a year so that's $800 in additional yearly maintenance) so the extra weight and typically larger tyre spec on EV cars might mean might gets worse (although logic might say that with the battery weight being centred and lowered, this will reduce tyre scrubbing)

So would love to get into an EV but the calc's don't make sense.

Peter

 

[Frank Dernie]

I have been through this exercise a couple of times now and from a cost analysis/ROI perspective, a pure EV is hard to justify. Not interested in a hybrid..what's the point of running two engine systems, even if the ICE is just used into a generator. Extra weight, extra maintenance etc.

Using several different sources, in my country I would save ~$2500 per year going the EV route (compared to ICE) but to get a comparable EV with the size/features I want (and I don't need anything big.. think Kia EV3 or similar), the EV car would cost ~$20k more.

Thus it would take ~8 years before I started to get into positive territory. At which point you probably want to move into a new car so the EV doesn't save me any money.

There are no government incentives for getting into an EV, they charge ~$1200 per year in a tax to make up for lost government tax on petrol sales and electric power is relatively expensive.

On a personal level, because of where I live I eat front tyres (need a set a year so that's $800 in additional yearly maintenance) so the extra weight and typically larger tyre spec on EV cars might mean might gets worse (although logic might say that with the battery weight being centred and lowered, this will reduce tyre scrubbing)

So would love to get into an EV but the calc's don't make sense.

Peter

I didn't choose an EV because it was cheaper, I chose it because it was nicer to drive.
I do have a Toyota hybrid too, I bought one because of the elegant, simple, clever engineering, not expecting to keep it long but now have had 3 over the last 21 years and the original is still being used by my daughter and is still on the original traction battery and has never broken down.

 

[Soundproof]

I have been through this exercise a couple of times now and from a cost analysis/ROI perspective, a pure EV is hard to justify. Not interested in a hybrid..what's the point of running two engine systems, even if the ICE is just used into a generator. Extra weight, extra maintenance etc.

Using several different sources, in my country I would save ~$2500 per year going the EV route (compared to ICE) but to get a comparable EV with the size/features I want (and I don't need anything big.. think Kia EV3 or similar), the EV car would cost ~$20k more.

Thus it would take ~8 years before I started to get into positive territory. At which point you probably want to move into a new car so the EV doesn't save me any money.

There are no government incentives for getting into an EV, they charge ~$1200 per year in a tax to make up for lost government tax on petrol sales and electric power is relatively expensive.

On a personal level, because of where I live I eat front tyres (need a set a year so that's $800 in additional yearly maintenance) so the extra weight and typically larger tyre spec on EV cars might mean might gets worse (although logic might say that with the battery weight being centred and lowered, this will reduce tyre scrubbing)

So would love to get into an EV but the calc's don't make sense.

Peter

The way it is now, I believe it's hard to predict owning costs / running costs for most "average cars for everyone". Some diesels are keeping their value, a hybrid like XC90 (and the diesel) is holding up, others are sinking. As mentioned by others, Taycans have seen a massive drop, causes may be different in various markets, but here, Covid and Ukraine kicked in with instability, and interests went up. People with mortgage on their houses added more to get Taycans, and when the mortgage costs went up many sought to get rid of their Taycans at the same time.

For other segments, the massive pressure from China led to price drops, as the Chinese cars are competing against each other AND european cars. And when new cars drops, 2nd hand values drops. Which means higher risk for banks thus higher interests. And so on and so on. Then, gas/diesel prices have gone up, electricity have gone up, and the total stretches the households. It's pretty difficult to predict 2nd hand values of diesel/gas cars too. If the EV wave carries on which I believe i will, the fossile cars will drop a lot. Gas stations are closing down if they don't have EV chargers, in 10-15 years petrol car drivers will have to plan their travels like EV owners had to do 5-6 years ago.

Rather difficult to predict how all of it develops, thus difficult to calculate the costs of owning any car. Would argue all of this is very dependent upon geography though. The EV penetration here is massive, where the penetration is low it will be a different dynamic to it.

 

[fatoldgit]

Would argue all of this is very dependent upon geography though.

So where I live, lets look at the currency:

- has a value of .50 compared to the euro
- has a value of .44 compared to the pound
- has a value of .55 compared to the US dollar
- etc etc

On top of that, loans are expensive, energy is expensive, houses/rents are expensive, food is expensive, white ware is expensive etc. And on top of that, being at the very bottom of the world means transportation costs of imported goods is expensive and thus reflected in the sale price. And we aren't earning twice the salary/wage of those in the aforementioned locations to compensate.

So if you are living and earning in one of these large economies, then economies of scale and strong currencies come into play... in a country of 5 million, not so much.

Now, yes the Chinese EV's are cheaper BUT if you read end user reports, maybe only BYD is a sure bet. EV's are the ultimate "software defined vehicle" and that's where many of the issues with new entrant Chinese cars are.

Now this isn't a Chinese only issue...I have had the "pleasure" of using European loaner cars from my dealership while they serviced my car and it was dangerous (because of where I live). I would in several instances have to fight the steering to stay on the road cause the driver assist crap decided that the oncoming vehicle was some threat (no road side barriers where I live between me and a 500m drop off a cliff).

You also don't want to be fighting the steering when the oncoming vehicle is a truck/trailer laden with logs that is taking 50% of your side of the road as it turns on a blind corner. You want to depend on your own instincts in this case to literally stay alive.

Now yes, the above is an edge case but it's my edge case and my research shows that EV or non-EV, the "computer defined car" is great if you are cruising along a US Interstate or German autobhan cause the edge cases are tiny, but in much of the rest of the world, the edge cases are deadly.

My sister/BIL just got a Toyota RAV 4 hybrid and it is beeping at them all the time for various "issues" like supposedly not having their eyes on the road. Driver assist is great!!! (but I don't want it and it seems it's very difficult to turn off).

Peter

 

[BJL]

So where I live, lets look at the currency:

- has a value of .50 compared to the euro
- has a value of .44 compared to the pound
- has a value of .55 compared to the US dollar
- etc etc

On top of that, loans are expensive, energy is expensive, houses/rents are expensive, food is expensive, white ware is expensive etc. And on top of that, being at the very bottom of the world means transportation costs of imported goods is expensive and thus reflected in the sale price. And we aren't earning twice the salary/wage of those in the aforementioned locations to compensate.

So if you are living and earning in one of these large economies, then economies of scale and strong currencies come into play... in a country of 5 million, not so much.

Now, yes the Chinese EV's are cheaper BUT if you read end user reports, maybe only BYD is a sure bet. EV's are the ultimate "software defined vehicle" and that's where many of the issues with new entrant Chinese cars are.

Now this isn't a Chinese only issue...I have had the "pleasure" of using European loaner cars from my dealership while they serviced my car and it was dangerous (because of where I live). I would in several instances have to fight the steering to stay on the road cause the driver assist crap decided that the oncoming vehicle was some threat (no road side barriers where I live between me and a 500m drop off a cliff).

You also don't want to be fighting the steering when the oncoming vehicle is a truck/trailer laden with logs that is taking 50% of your side of the road as it turns on a blind corner. You want to depend on your own instincts in this case to literally stay alive.

Now yes, the above is an edge case but it's my edge case and my research shows that EV or non-EV, the "computer defined car" is great if you are cruising along a US Interstate or German autobhan cause the edge cases are tiny, but in much of the rest of the world, the edge cases are deadly.

My sister/BIL just got a Toyota RAV 4 hybrid and it is beeping at them all the time for various "issues" like supposedly not having their eyes on the road. Driver assist is great!!! (but I don't want it and it seems it's very difficult to turn off).

Peter

All modern cars seem to have considerable software features and therefore part of selecting a car is determining what features you want and do not want (or want to turn off.) This isn't specific to EVs. A well-designed car should allow you to customize to fit your own driving requirements. This is part of car shopping, just as selecting features in audio equipment is part of audio shopping.

There are so many options these days that it is an additional level of knowledge beyond the old days (how does it handle, how is the acceleration, etc.) both for shopping and setting up after purchase.

For example, with Tesla, the issue you mention (auto steering) is easy to disable, but you do have to read the manual (or look through the menus) to know this. Then there are options for weight of the steering, acceleration, and more, and a variety of safety features. Some EVs allow for degrees of regenerative braking from zero to max (e.g. Hyundai), some do not (Tesla, on all the time at its maximum.)

EVs are a lot of fun to drive, much more so than gas cars, they are faster, with incredible torque, and many (such as Tesla) have thrilling acceleration and handle like a sports car. The additional effort to select an EV that allows customization to your driving style and interests is, to me, a major plus. All these great options, no emissions, no noise, what more could you want?

I'm sorry for your sister. A car that annoyed me as you describe would make driving a real drag.

 

[pablolie]

... EVs are a lot of fun to drive, much more so than gas cars, they are faster, with incredible torque...

... in a straight line. Their weight makes most of them pathetic in tight technical turns. I have one. For fun, few cars will ever beat my motorcycles, but some have come close... all of them with combustion engines.
Clearly not a priority in car engineering anymore, as the push is for self driving. Ugh. UGH .

 

[BJL]

... in a straight line. Their weight makes most of them pathetic in tight technical turns. I have one. For fun, few cars will ever beat my motorcycles, but some have come close... all of them with combustion engines.
Clearly not a priority in car engineering anymore, as the push is for self driving. Ugh. UGH .

That is complete BS.

 

[Matt34]

Our lease is up in couple months on our 2024 Hyundai Ioniq 5. First EV and overall a great car. We had free level 3 charging via Electrify America for the entirety of the lease but honestly mostly charged at home via a level 2 charger at .07/KW. The only reason we took the leap to EV was because of the state and federal incentives, I would never had looked otherwise at a car that stickered around $54k.
Not sure what we’re doing after the lease is up. Honestly, with the cost of living we will probably just stick it out for a while as a one car family in the Mazda Cx-5.

 

[pablolie]

That is complete BS.

Let me know which kind of car holds circuit records or STFU. Tell us a single memorable one where an EV does. You're rude and ignorant, not a great combo. EV cars are not designed for excitement other than in a lame straight line. And like I said, I caved in and drive one. But claiming it's for driving experience is utter idiocy.

 

[Imakeller]

Let me know which kind of car holds circuit records or STFU. Tell us a single memorable one where an EV does.You're rude and ignorant, not a great combo. EV cars are not designed for excitement other than in a lame straight line. And like I said, I caved in and drive one. But claiming it's for driving experience is utter idiocy.

The Lucid Sapphire did a 7:20 lap time at Nurburgring, so pretty exciting stuff.

 

[Soandso]

From Puebla, Mexico scheduled for availability next summer (2027) is the Olinia Uno passenger electric vehicle. Scheduled price at Mx pesos 150,000 in todays currency exchange rates would be US$8,850 or €7,647. Their "Carga" cargo van will be ready a bit later.


The top speed is 50 km per hour (31 miles per hour), uses a lithium ion battery rated for 14.7 kWh driving a 13 kW motor and seats up to 6 or a wheelchair passenger. Charging is simply from house outlet via an NACS connector and given 220V recharges in 4 hours (110V recharging takes 8 hours).

 

[Spyerx]

Let me know which kind of car holds circuit records or STFU. Tell us a single memorable one where an EV does.You're rude and ignorant, not a great combo. EV cars are not designed for excitement other than in a lame straight line. And like I said, I caved in and drive one. But claiming it's for driving experience is utter idiocy.

To be fair the pikes peak hill limb record car is an EV. Purpose built situation.

I’ve yet to drive an EV that offered a better enthusiasts driving experience. (I say yet because I’m confident at some point the tech will get there, especially weight) But most people aren’t enthusiasts. EVs do arguably offer a better a to b appliance experience for most people. But they are generally pretty boring to drive. And I’ve owned 2 of the best driving ones on the market. I’ve done track days in the macan and the taycan. Both were killing their tires after 2 press laps. They are fast. They shoot out if the corner. But they are also heavy and tires can’t hide physics.