Pure Electric Vehicles

[ianovic69]

I presume you are joking?
A friend of mine is runs a R&D company developing the production of "sustainable" fuel. The production possibilities are very expemnsive and slow, and are unlikely to ever be economical for general use, and still need transport and distribution.
FWIW one of my ex-colleagues, I am now retired, told me the sustainable fuel mandated for Formula 1 racing costs around $500,000 per team per race.

The "Zero" research level plant produces about a perfume bottle full of fuel per day and uses so much electricity any production plant will need to be near a wind farm or hydro plant using surplus energy at night and currently looks impractical.

Comment I wanted to see.
Is HVO100 considered a viable alternative?
(I've been reading up on synfuels since this was posted.)

 

[ianovic69]

There are loads of inexpensive small EVs available here.
The Range Rover gets almost zero interest, though I did see it is now available to buy and the price is announced.

About 100k it seems

 

[Soundproof]

Works brilliantly in Scotland, a net exporter of renewable energy.

Yeah, you are doing great, and the AI industry of Europe is grateful

 

[Frank Dernie]

Comment I wanted to see.
Is HVO100 considered a viable alternative?
(I've been reading up on synfuels since this was posted.)

Not in large quantities since it is basically recycled waste so inherently quantity limited, but since electric motors are superior to piston engines in every objective way we only need a stopgap.

 

[Mike123]

I presume you are joking?

Not at all. I understand that no one is doing this right now. But batteries for reliable and inexpensive storage of electricity on an industrial scale really don't exist. And fuel has many significant advantages. Starting with its specific gravity. Could you remind me how much a diesel tank weighs, and how much a corresponding battery weighs?

 

[Frank Dernie]

About 100k it seems

£154,000

 

[Soundproof]

There are loads of inexpensive small EVs available here.
The Range Rover gets almost zero interest, though I did see it is now available to buy and the price is announced.

for example

Best small electric cars to buy 2026 | Auto Express

These small EVs offer great value and efficiency

www.autoexpress.co.uk

I am aware of the small EV's

 

[Frank Dernie]

Not at all. I understand that no one is doing this right now. But batteries for reliable and inexpensive storage of electricity on an industrial scale really don't exist. And fuel has many significant advantages. Starting with its specific gravity. Could you remind me how much a diesel tank weighs, and how much a corresponding battery weighs?

One example

If you use clean energy to synthesise diesel the only way to get the energy back is dirty, and you still have to transport it so it is a hopeless case.

The weight is irrelevant.

 

[Frank Dernie]

Yeah, you are doing great, and the AI industry of Europe is grateful

?

 

[Soundproof]

?

It was a joke. The European grid is wide and flexible, and my point with the joke was that demand elswhere influences the energy balance. AI in Sweden, Finland or Norway will reduce their net export or increase net import. Regardless, more energy be it from LNG or renewable will be required in the grid Scotland forms a part of, the natural gas reserves won't last forever.

 

[Frank Dernie]

It was a joke. The European grid is wide and flexible, and my point with the joke was that demand elswhere influences the energy balance. AI in Sweden, Finland or Norway will reduce their net export or increase net import. Regardless, more energy be it from LNG or renewable will be required in the grid Scotland forms a part of, the natural gas reserves won't last forever.

At the present rate of installation, better late than never, gas eventually won't be needed.

 

[Soundproof]

At the present rate of installation, better late than never, gas eventually won't be needed.

True, but the consumption has to go down still.

Anyway, we will run out of petrol pumps before we run out of petrol. Chargers and diesel pumps will be the choice a decade or so from now

 

[Timcognito]

Free energy from the sky that goes into wires as electricity on site to virtually every structure in the modern world through an ever expanding grid and storage options will dominate. It is plain economics given current technology. Fusion has promise but has made slow progress and will produce electricity as well. Large vehicles, trucks and aircraft may still need fossil fuels for longer, but even they may succumb to smaller lighter stronger batteries.

 

[NTK]

The best batteries are synthetic diesel fuel produced using solar and wind power plants .

Have you compared the thermodynamic efficiency of a heat engine to that of an electric motor? You want to convert electricity to diesel and from diesel back to mechanical power? Do you know how much of that energy that will be wasted, let alone the pollution from the diesel engine?

 

[ErVikingo]

Just replaced my eTron with a Cadillac Vistiq. Cadillac ride with much more power than the Audi!

 

[Mike123]

Have you compared the thermodynamic efficiency of a heat engine to that of an electric motor?

No. I compared the full efficiency of a diesel car, including the initial vehicle price, fuel consumption, and cost, with the full efficiency of an electric car, including the initial vehicle price, fuel consumption, and cost. In that case, the difference isn't as dramatic as you're trying to tell me. If there is any difference at all.

 

[Mike123]

Gentlemen, I apologize, this thread is for electric vehicle enthusiasts, not for comparing electric cars and gas-powered vehicles. I won't upset you any further with my presence. I simply want to remind you that the world is a very big place. And what works very well for you now works poorly or not at all in countless other places.

Russia has bombed city electrical substation once again, so part of the city is experiencing 20 hours of no power and 4 hours with power. And the lucky ones this time are sharing with their neighbors and experiencing 20 hours with power and 4 hours of no power. We lived all winter in a 7 hours of no power and 3 hours of power mode. Or for a week of no power, when our substation was bombed. So even if I survive and wait until the war is over, I will never buy an electric car. Because when you don't have diesel, you can borrow or buy it from truck drivers, tractor drivers, or even the military. Even with gasoline, things are much worse. And when you don't have 40 kWh, you simply have nowhere to get it. Don't forget that civilization is very fragile .

 

[Frank Dernie]

No. I compared the full efficiency of a diesel car, including the initial vehicle price, fuel consumption, and cost, with the full efficiency of an electric car, including the initial vehicle price, fuel consumption, and cost. In that case, the difference isn't as dramatic as you're trying to tell me. If there is any difference at all.

The difference in cost is not the issue.
It is the difference in pollution.
Both climate change (which we are probably too late to fix despite the science having been clear for 20 years or so) but particularly locally.
Any IC engined vehicle is emitting out poisonous gasses half a meter from the face of a child in a pushchair in town, so even if an EV is powered by fossil fuel, increasingly unlikely, that pollution is going up a high chimney high above a power station so not good but very many times better than having any combustion engine in a populated area.

OTOH as an engineer who designed and ran Formula 1 cars for over 30 years the big benefit of EVs is how much better an electric motor is than a piston engine for a road car, particularly response and power bandwidth but quietness and simplicity too.

 

[Frank Dernie]

Don't forget that civilization is very fragile

You are, of course, correct for your horrific instance.

Fossil fuels have benefits for sure in crises, and talking about pollution when there are missiles and bombs that are orders of magnitude dirtier is moot.
I salute your country for its bravery.

 

[egellings]

Create other sources of electricity.

Rapid deployment of solar generated electric where ever the sun shines, with batteries is one good choice, it's what we have where I live in Florida. Also China, as I understand it. I'm sure that there are other approaches, wind comes to mind. Nuclear power also works, but it isn't rapid deployment and there are environmental issues.

EVs are vastly more efficient than fossil fuel vehicles. Total energy consumption is reduced, dramatically, with EVs.

The problem is reliance on fossil fuels, a big mistake by governments everywhere, when there are better alternatives. Or perhaps it might be more accurate to say, we are held hostage by fossil fuel cartels, who have apparently done their level best to forestall the development of alternatives, e.g. the current national government here in the U.S.

And of course, oppose data centers and block them when ever possible.

If we can ever master fusion power ("a star in a jar") on a commercial scale, our energy problems would be greatly reduced if not completely solved. ITER is working on it.