PUNCH! How do we define it?

[svart-hvitt]

Just make sure you don't run out of either in your particular application. If you're going to run out, do something to limit the output intelligently - which is presumably possible with DSP. For most people, just don't turn the volume up ridiculously high.

Do people here routinely run out of headroom? My 8" woofer-based 3-ways go very loud without problems. My 12" woofer-based 3-ways go louder and lower. Can't say I've run out of headroom with either!

Just trying to bring clarity here: Headroom MUST be seen in relation to distortion. Many speakers can play loud. But loud without distortion is another game.

(And «loud» is a quality that is a bit different for films than music due to the bigger dynamic range of films, which means «loud» for music is a bit different than «loud» for films).

Agree?

 

[Cosmik]

Just trying to bring clarity here: Headroom MUST be seen in relation to distortion. Many speakers can play loud. But loud without distortion is another game.

(And «loud» is a quality that is a bit different for films than music due to the bigger dynamic range of films, which means «loud» for music is a bit different than «loud» for films).

Agree?

Yes, but it's just a question of 'adequacy'. In the scheme of things, amplifiers, chipboard, polypropylene, magnets and copper wire are pretty cheap. Why struggle with limited headroom when ample headroom can be bought for less than the price of a glass CD? I would have thought that most people were more limited by neighbours than the hardware.

 

[MattHooper]

I've tried quite a number of stand mounted speakers over the years (and of course auditioned a great many more) and I always come back to floor standing speakers. Even those smaller speakers that are spec'd as going quite low in the bass, and sound bigger than they are, never have convinced me, or sounded as big as actual big speakers. It's amazing how big and effortless even my not-huge Thiel 2.7s (coaxial 4.5" mid/tweeter and 8" woofer) floor standing speakers sound compared to some stand mounted speakers that went quite low. The small speakers when cranked up, not even crazy loud, just sounded like they ran out of steam and like they were, as someone put it here, faking it: small speakers trying to sound like big speakers.

Large drivers are good - I like large drivers. But I'm not convinced that a small, high displacement driver can't generate 'punch' in the right circumstances.

FWIW...

The closest I personally have heard to success in that regard have been the Joseph Audio Perspective speakers. They are quite small for floorstanding speakers. The claim for their two 5.5" SEAS drivers is that they have "low in distortion, and has tremendous throw." Of course a manufacturer is going to hype the product, but if there is a single attribute one hears over and over about those speakers it is the "astounding" amount and quality of bass they seem to produce. JA just re-iterated in a follow up review of the new Perspective 2s "I was astonished at how much clean, low frequency energy four 5.5" woofers could pump in to my room."

I auditioned the Joseph Perspectives right after auditioning some speakers using 10" woofers (which had provided great impact on rock, funk etc), and I was taken aback by how big, solid and "punchy" the bass was on the small Joseph speakers. The kick drums, bass and snare tracks I played seemed to have very similar size, impact and dynamics as the larger speakers I auditioned.

I'm fond enough of those speakers to consider them my next purchase, so maybe I'll discover over time something "missing." But having heard them numerous times (and at my own home) they sure seem to be the mythical small speaker that kicks like a bigger speaker.

 

[Ron Texas]

Where would you like it? LOL

 

[LTig]

[..] My gripe with the Kiis was always the marketing of the product, and in the Kii case the engineer and the sales-marketing are closely related (small firm, «one man»). The Kiis were marketed as a «small big speaker», and sales people told their customers this is the end of the road for them.

There is quite some truth in this. I visited the Kii booth on Highend 2019 in Munich and they spoke a lot about their "unique" solution ("we are the sole company in the market which solves the problem where to place the speaker in the room because our speaker does not emit bass to the rear"). Of course this is wrong, there is also ME Geithain and probably others as well. When I said so at the end of the show they said that "we are the sole company which does it with DSP".

Many people have paid a lot for this speaker, deluded by marketing into believing that the old laws of physics were outdated. In other words, there is reason to believe harm has been done in the Kii case due to their marketing. Marketing can be a fine thing, but it should be wary of doing harm, I think. And this thread, on «punch», is partly about what will be missing in a smaller speaker. If «punch» is important to people - which I believe it is - you can’t have a small speaker. And that’s why the Kii people decided to introduce the BXT module which tripled the footprint (sadly, the price more than doubled).[..]

In the booth I auditioned the Kii with and without BXT and the result was close to when I switch my subwoofer (Genelec 7060B) in or out of my chain (K&H O300D): more deep bass, cleaner mids. But the KIIs w/wo BXT sounded a little more forward than the Grimm LS1Be which is the reasone why I preferred the Grimms.

Coming back to the topic my 2c are that punch is somewhere between 50 and 100 Hz. My PC speakers, Genelec 8020, definitely cannot deliver any punch at all (66 Hz -3dB). The O300D alone are much better, maybe due to being 3 way and a closed box. But with subwoofer there is punch if the recording has any (not that many unfortunately)..

 

[StevenEleven]

Obviously it’s subjective, but to me “punch” is too much emphasis centered at 60-80 hz, a sort of fun, well, punchy sound, like a comic book effect.

40-50 hertz to me just sounds rock solid, it’s difficult to describe, just like a stone bedrock. Not punchy but just hard and real. Not comic book punch but a realistic foundation to the music.

My feeling is that most speakers and a lot of older recordings use a punch effect because they don’t reach that 40-50 hertz musical foundation well enough, so they use punch to substitute for the feeling of true low bass. It’s euphonic, but not accurate.

That’s why I think powered subwoofers are such an important component of high fidelity, so you can get the real lows, provided they are represented in the recording.

 

[etc6849]

No matter how good your equipment and speakers are, punchy bass isn't going to happen without adequate room treatments and multiple drivers, at least in the rooms I have in my home.

Also, I don't think I would define punch solely in terms of frequency. While it seems to me it is somewhere in the 60-100Hz region, I would contend you should try for a waterfall plot that decays at least 40dB down in 200ms over 60-100Hz, and of course you shouldn't have any dips in the 60-100 Hz range.

Although I have +/-5dB dip with no EQ (Dirac can correct for it), I am still experiencing the best bass I have ever heard on any system. It took 5 subs (9 drivers in total) crossed at 100Hz to achieve for my small room.