Public Concerts with 2x 15 inch Lii full range drivers ?

[DVDdoug]

It does depend on the type of music but PA speakers are usually sensitive/efficient (they go loud with one Watt) and they can handle lots of power.

Typically, horns are used for the mids & highs (because they are efficient) and the boxes are ported for the same reason, although it starts with an efficient woofer.

Economically, it would be hard to beat something like this. But I have no idea what your real needs are. There's a big difference between a singer with an acoustic guitar, or a choir, or a full rock band, etc.

subs apart from the 2 open baffles.

Should the subs be open baffle as well, that is a question...

For live music in a small venue you don't need subs. Bass guitar will already be amplified and a kick drum is loud enough.

Open baffle subs are NOT the way to go. Most PA subs are large ported boxes. That allows for high efficiency and bass you can feel in your body. Many home subs are sealed which allows them to go lower in frequency (with EQ/DSP) but you lose efficiency and overall they don't go as loud (but loud enough in a smaller space).

Perhaps this project in such a big space is impossible ?
Perhaps I need to find a smaller space ?

IMO, a larger space almost always sounds better, no matter what system/speakers you are listening to.

My idea is to create an association, a sort of HiFi Club to
share these possibilities about high-end music for a low price
that is indeed possible today, especially with open baffle speakers.
This club could possibly also evolve to construction projects.

That's an entirely different scenario! Have fun and do whatever you want.

I'm not a fan if dipole/bi-pole speakers and the room has a bigger influence than with "normal" speakers, but that's a personal preference.

 

[RaymondFromThePyrénéés]

Thank you, this is something I obviously shall have to explore.

I understand what you say about the subs and I will begin this
adventure without subs to see how the Lii 15 inches sound with
my WiiM and 3E 7A in my room.

The idea to create an association is more about sharing with others
like we also do here.

Yes, I do not think that open baffles are made for grand orchestra
and certainly not for rock and roll,
I would guess it is more for chamber and small group music, guitar,
singers and so on.

I do not think that any speaker is perfect for all
kinds of music, although any good traditional speaker can play just anything.

However, open baffle speakers seems to be a different piece of a cake.

Jim Smith says that the size of my room at home is in his opinion
almost perfect 19"x14" (5.79x4.26) with ceiling of 10" (3 m) high.

He is also against the closed the "dry" sub sound, at least in the book I
have the chance to read, Get Better Sound.

 

[mhardy6647]

Altec A5 using Altec 1505 500 Hz multicell horns and 288 compression drivers for the treble + Jean Hiraga's crossovers will work and sound oh so much better than 15 inch twincones (edit: on OBs) in an environment such as is shown in the OP.

... and probably not even cost that much more.
Some judicious power limitation will be required, but they should still soak up more amplifier power than the Liis could stand.

 

[Flaesh]

an association, a sort of HiFi Club

That's roughly how I understood the initial post. As a demonstration of the speakers to a group of hi-fi enthusiasts (although whether LII OB are hi-fi is debatable).
I once attended a short presentation of open-baffle speakers in a small conference room, about 200 square meters, acoustically close to the standards for such spaces. I even helped the designer radically toe in them instead of placing them parallel, which pleased some of the listeners. But a couple of "audiophile gurus" began grumbling that the "right" way to install the speakers is to place them parallel, and the designer didn't dare argue with them. If the presentation time had not been so short and there would have been a bar at the back of the room - perhaps the discussion of the turning angle would have been more lively!

Regarding volume, at least in the front rows of the hall, it was loud enough to give a basic idea of the speakers' sound character. Three-way, 2x15" woofers, dome tweeter.

The room in your photos seems very reverberant! (Yes, I'm repeating myself.)

 

[RaymondFromThePyrénéés]

Thank you mhardy. What will not cost much more than the Lii ? Altec A5 drivers ? or ? what I see on the image "seems" to be a very complicated construction but perhaps I am wrong ?

 

[RaymondFromThePyrénéés]

That's roughly how I understood the initial post. As a demonstration of the speakers to a group of hi-fi enthusiasts (although whether LII OB are hi-fi is debatable).
I once attended a short presentation of open-baffle speakers in a small conference room, about 200 square meters, acoustically close to the standards for such spaces. I even helped the designer radically toe in them instead of placing them parallel, which pleased some of the listeners. But a couple of "audiophile gurus" began grumbling that the "right" way to install the speakers is to place them parallel, and the designer didn't dare argue with them. If the presentation time had not been so short and there would have been a bar at the back of the room - perhaps the discussion of the turning angle would have been more lively!

Regarding volume, at least in the front rows of the hall, it was loud enough to give a basic idea of the speakers' sound character. Three-way, 2x15" woofers, dome tweeter.

The room in your photos seems very reverberant! (Yes, I'm repeating myself.)

Thank you Flaesh. Yes, this room is not only walls to the sides covered with stones and in between stones there is ciment so very reverberent.

 

[RaymondFromThePyrénéés]

Whether the Open Baffle is HIFI or not HIFI, I do not have any answer to this.
I liked the sound I heard a few years ago, mainly chamber music and voice, few instruments.
BUT BUT I agree to one thing : I did not compare to other systems in the same setting
so obviously this was indeed a very subjective emotional experience I had for about an hour,
nothing to compare to on the spot.

What I see is having both : regular speakers, and open baffle and compare for myself.

What was interesting to me about the Open Baffle is the ease of DIY projects,
just a driver on a board, no crossovers, an amp and a source.

As far as the post by mhardy,
I did not understand what he meant,
especially from what I see on the image
which seems to be a very complex speaker set up ?

Still reading Get Better Sound by Jim Smith I understand that we could
take pretty any speaker and amp and source and greatly improve the sound
by tuning the room and placement and so on,
and that this is what will make the biggest difference, more than the choice of equipment.

 

[LTig]

My idea in the future is to offer concerts and to make people discover what I once discovered
with a simple one full range driver on a board that anyone can make themselves for little money.

I found a place, an association who offer concerts and theater
and the space measures 8 x16 meters (26x52 feet),
the ceiling is about 3 meters (10 feet) high.

The front, space behind the speakers could be either stonewall or a thick black curtain,
the side walls are of stone and cement, and the behind the chairs is a bar and an uneven space,
see images below.

My worries is , would I be able to get enough volume in such a space with a pair open baffle
Lii 15" speakers with my WiiM and the 3E 7A ?

And for the 2 subs if needed, I would need another pair of amplifiers.

I read that for baffles, a room with little absorbing materials have an advantage compared with
a room with lots of absorbing materials.

Perhaps this project in such a big space is impossible ?
Perhaps I need to find a smaller space ?

Thank you for any input.

I'd go for a decent active column speaker system (woofer plus small line array). See LD Systems, EV and others.

 

[Flaesh]

Are you thinking of periodic/occasional "club meetings" with some kind of listening experience? It may be that there are more diverse venues available for rent for a day or two than there are people willing to come listen to speakers and discuss hi-fi topics offline.
How much will the bar help?))..

 

[RaymondFromThePyrénéés]

I forgot about this place since the space seems to be way to big.
I will find a smaller space or maybe start with my own room.
The idea is to get together locally with some people who enjoy searching
for the very good sound, fist thing would be to show them what is possible
at a relatively low cost of 2000-3000

 

[Flaesh]

Maybe you could edit the opening post?
Many people have a different understanding of the issue and offer advice on choosing a typical PA speaker system (or something else) for regular use in the room shown in the photos.

 

[DVDdoug]

I do not think that any speaker is perfect for all
kinds of music, although any good traditional speaker can play just anything.

A good speaker will play anything accurately. Recording speakers use the same monitors for everything. (Usually they have smaller "near field" monitors or something else 'inferior" to make sure the production will sound OK on an imperfect playback system.)

However, open baffle speakers seems to be a different piece of a cake.

Yes. Along with room acoustics they can alter the sound. You can consider it an "effect". You generally won't get "accurate reproduction" that duplicates what was heard in the studio. That's OK... It's a matter of taste.

The Bose 901 was a "direct/reflecting" speaker with most of the sound going to the side and rear and reflected off of the walls. It was a "high end" option and people either loved or hated it. And of course the particular room made a big difference in how they sounded.

I like to use a "hall" or "theater" setting on my AVR for some delayed reverb in the rear and the "feel" of a larger space. That's also not accurate reproduction.

He is also against the closed the "dry" sub sound, at least in the book I
have the chance to read, Get Better Sound.

"The Bible" is Sound Reproduction by Floyd Toole. It's "technical and scientific" but not overly-technical. I was surprised how enjoyable it was to read.

He doesn't talk a whole lot about speaker design (sealed, ported, open baffle, horn, etc.). He's more concerned with how a speaker sounds/performs rather than how it's made. And he talks a lot about how room acoustics affect the sound.

Altec A5

I love those big-'ol Altecs!!! I have fond memories of the A7 and I always lusted for a pair! (I only heard them, never owned them, and never had the space.) They probably wouldn't hold-up compared to modern speakers but they were the best thing I'd ever heard (in the 1970s) and they were super-efficient and loud.

My current speakers in my living room are an 8-foot DIY "speaker stack". But it's probably only 1/4 or 1/3rd the floorspace/footprint of the A7.

 

[RaymondFromThePyrénéés]

A good speaker will play anything accurately. Recording speakers use the same monitors for everything. (Usually they have smaller "near field" monitors or something else 'inferior" to make sure the production will sound OK on an imperfect playback system.)


Yes. Along with room acoustics they can alter the sound. You can consider it an "effect". You generally won't get "accurate reproduction" that duplicates what was heard in the studio. That's OK... It's a matter of taste.

The Bose 901 was a "direct/reflecting" speaker with most of the sound going to the side and rear and reflected off of the walls. It was a "high end" option and people either loved or hated it. And of course the particular room made a big difference in how they sounded.

I like to use a "hall" or "theater" setting on my AVR for some delayed reverb in the rear and the "feel" of a larger space. That's also not accurate reproduction.


"The Bible" is Sound Reproduction by Floyd Toole. It's "technical and scientific" but not overly-technical. I was surprised how enjoyable it was to read.

He doesn't talk a whole lot about speaker design (sealed, ported, open baffle, horn, etc.). He's more concerned with how a speaker sounds/performs rather than how it's made. And he talks a lot about how room acoustics affect the sound.


I love those big-'ol Altecs!!! I have fond memories of the A7 and I always lusted for a pair! (I only heard them, never owned them, and never had the space.) They probably wouldn't hold-up compared to modern speakers but they were the best thing I'd ever heard (in the 1970s) and they were super-efficient and loud.

My current speakers in my living room are an 8-foot DIY "speaker stack". But it's probably only 1/4 or 1/3rd the floorspace/footprint of the A7.

Thank you DVD Doug. I understand but there seems also to be personal preferences to what we like as a sound. But I am no expert, have little experience of sounds from quality speakers. The speakers you talk about here 8 foot speaker stack, is there a DIY plan on how to make them or did you simply let your imagination with your experience lead you to the way you constructed them ?

 

[RaymondFromThePyrénéés]

Maybe you could edit the opening post?
Many people have a different understanding of the issue and offer advice on choosing a typical PA speaker system (or something else) for regular use in the room shown in the photos.

how to edit the first post ? I see nowhere where to edit ?

 

[Vandemann]

They are 15” single woofer speakers, so, yeah they will beam. No amount of wizzer cones will prevent this.

So it's just belief.

 

[mhardy6647]

Thank you mhardy. What will not cost much more than the Lii ? Altec A5 drivers ? or ? what I see on the image "seems" to be a very complicated construction but perhaps I am wrong ?

a pair of the loudspeakers, fully assembled.
The low frequency drivers 'should be' 515B drivers, but the 416 drivers work well, too, and are less expensive.


(FWIW, I use 515B in my loudspeakers)

Altec A5 variants were in production for decades and aren't hard to find (in much if not most of the world). They're not inexpensive, and they are large and heavy, but they're extremely cost effective to fill a large space with dynamic sound.

They'll also hold their value, which the Lii drivers - likely -won't.

 

[RaymondFromThePyrénéés]

Thank you for this tip. Looks like a worthwhile setup, I will watch the used market.

 

[voodooless]

So it's just belief.

No, it’s an educated guess based on how similar products work.

 

[RaymondFromThePyrénéés]

Thank you for the 515B.

Now to get back about my open baffle which I understnd that you are not keen on (although some experts rave about them).

One of the advantage (perhaps the main advantage) of a single driver open baffle was to show people how easy and inexpensive it can be.

Is there no other way to build a simple one driver speaker ?

Or one driver speaker, adding a sub that the wiim ultra can take care of without any additional crossover and boxes to build ?

 

[Chr1]

I just picked up a used pair of Tannoy T300s for £200.
They have a single 12" coaxial driver.
Sure, they are not as esoteric as open baffles, but I doubt there's a better single driver option for your type of application at this price point personally.

Guess you need to decide if you want optimal sound vs quirky audiophile looks/image.
If you are dead set on open baffle, somewhere like DIYaudio.com may be a good source of info. Others here may have other suggestions too obviously. Looks like a fun space, so hope you enjoy whatever you decide on!

https://warehousesound.com/r/tannoyT300.pdf