Psychological &/or philosophical rejection of DSP

[Keith_W]

Yeah, but it's willful ignorance. That's what I find baffling. In a supposedly technical hobby, with scientific underpinnings (physics, acoustics, materials science etc etc) one might expect a greater level of curiosity and willingness to learn. Yet the opposite seems to be the case. There's some psychological element going on here of the escapes me.

That's because vast majority of this hobby have a fundamentally different view to us. For them, it's more akin to wine appreciation or luxury watch appreciation. They think there are countless manufacturers, all offering slightly different takes on a Shiraz, and each must be tasted to assemble the best system possible. Sure, there are $10 wines that get you as drunk as a $1000 wine. Some of them are even good! But no, they have elevated taste, likely can't pick the two wines apart in a blind test, but will swear till the cows come home that their $1000 wine is better. And of course, that $1000 wine needs expensive accoutrements - maybe a crystal decanter and wine glasses blown by a hermit in Moravia who makes one wine glass a year (and he has 10 of them). Those $10 wines are viewed with condescension, it's what the masses drink.

After I wrote my REW eBook, I made an announcement at the Melbourne Audio Club. A few members downloaded the book and started reading. One of them told me that he was blown away by the information in the book, he never realized that a microphone could tell him so much. I pointed out that a microphone is cheaper than his audiophile speaker cable, and if he knows how to use it, it will save him a lot of money. I have been talking to him for a month now, and he's been sharing his measurements with me. He is slowly being converted

 

[RexrothPigeon]

Dinosaurs don’t like meteors

 

[Somafunk]

Dinosaurs don’t like meteors

Don’t look up

 

[RexrothPigeon]

I totally agree with you but when running cat6 cables one should probably avoid running them through the same tube as power cables, in fact they should be far apart. They tend to pick up noise like any other cable.

Ok sure but that will be audible as noise, not some hokum like “veiled soundstage” or whatever

 

[Miercoles2022]

There will always be a haughty, incredulous response to EFFORT.

 

[RDoc]

That's actually the expert recommended position.

The compromise position is, skip the physical room treatment, go right to DSP.

What "experts" are these exactly?

I'd say the opposite: first do a careful DSP correction and only then consider room treatment. Of course that brings up the issue of how do you know what you're doing is actually an improvement or a placebo? Perhaps measuring the response at the listening position?

 

[levimax]

Compared to many audiophile beliefs about cables and lifters and the like, being cautious about DSP use is at least partially rooted in scientific reality. Beyond the scientifically proven effective minimum phase corrections on peaks below Schroeder, DSP use (for room correction) is unproven and can be an illusion or even detrimental in some cases. With REW enabling people to "check" their automatic solutions the automatic solutions now seem to be getting more aggressive at hammering a full range flat on axis response.

Rather than further divide the objectivists and subjectivists I hope DSP can be a bridge as both sides can learn from each other.

 

[RDoc]

OK that's settled, now let's do two channel vs multichannel.

Yes INDEED!!!

Fortunately, there aren't any members of ASR who would consider stereo somehow more "pure" than ATMOS or anything like that.

 

[RDoc]

Ok sure but that will be audible as noise, not some hokum like “veiled soundstage” or whatever

Actually, for ethernet or any other digital transmission, it will be slower transmission and/or dropouts, which might sound like static assuming you don't run into ground loops.

 

[Joe Smith]

I'm not averse to DSP, but at the same time use it very little. My listening is either nearfield (minimal room issues) or background while doing other things (don't care and can't focus on room issues). Hence, the obsessive audiophile thing of room, a sweet spot chair, hours on end of passive listening in one position - just isn't applicable.

 

[sam_adams]

Dinosaurs don’t like meteors

Don’t look up

That could be a mistake . . .

 

[Somafunk]

What "experts" are these exactly?

I'd say the opposite: first do a careful DSP correction and only then consider room treatment. Of course that brings up the issue of how do you know what you're doing is actually an improvement or a placebo? Perhaps measuring the response at the listening position?

DSP cannot do anything for reverb,

My room was measured first, 40% of budget on room treatment for RT60 of .3 seconds then 60% on active speakers and two active subs followed by peq through Roon.

A dry sounding room is a happy and pleasant place for electronic music, it suits me perfectly but may not work for everyone’s taste

 

[MattHooper]

Compared to many audiophile beliefs about cables and lifters and the like, being cautious about DSP use is at least partially rooted in scientific reality. Beyond the scientifically proven effective minimum phase corrections on peaks below Schroeder, DSP use (for room correction) is unproven and can be an illusion or even detrimental in some cases. With REW enabling people to "check" their automatic solutions the automatic solutions now seem to be getting more aggressive at hammering a full range flat on axis response.

Rather than further divide the objectivists and subjectivists I hope DSP can be a bridge as both sides can learn from each other.

Also: DSP/room correction/subwoofers can be it’s own OCD rabbit hole for some audiophiles

 

[NTK]

Also: DSP/room correction/subwoofers can be it’s own OCD rabbit hole for some audiophiles

Isn't having OCD a requisite for being an audiophile, and having more means higher level?

 

[xanalog]

Why do you visit audiophile forums?

That question is one nasty outburst!
Not at just the OP but all those who could not be bothered with what they may consider but a minutiae.
If all those others who gave you a Like (for that nasty comment) are of the sentiment that those who wish not to entangle with EQ are Luddites; it is snobby to the max.

Mind you this reply is from someone with the technical education and practice [borne/bread] and has all the required SOTA hardware/software to readily accomplish a roomEQ...
...yet, like all Luddites I could not be bothered.

 

[MattHooper]

That question is one nasty outburst!
Not at just the OP but all those who could not be bothered with what they may consider but a minutiae.
If all those others who gave you a Like (for that nasty comment) are of the sentiment that those who wish not to entangle with EQ are Luddites; it is snobby to the max.

Mind you this reply is from someone with the technical education and practice [borne/bread] and has all the required SOTA hardware/software to readily accomplish a roomEQ...
...yet, like all Luddites I could not be bothered.

Good to remember that this place was created as essentially an antidote to the subjective review press and subjective-oriented forums. (and a place to find reliable information about audio gear).

So you’re not gonna find much love around here for forums that aren’t like this one. (which is most audiophile forums.)

I do find that the dismissive and disparaging tone about “those other audiophiles” can get a bit much around here. But then this is something of a place to vent about the type of mindset many here are trying to escape or avoid. I do my own venting about the excesses of the subjective crowd so…I get the impulse.

 

[Waxx]

DSP is noow in general invisible, but it was not always the case. 25years ago most were not, and many have an averse to dsp because of those. I did use dsp back then for pro audio systems, not for home audio. But today i have dsp for home audio, but still also dsp-less systems that I love. I think both have their place, but for technical perfection in sound, a dsp is hard to avoid, and the quality of dsp's, even cheap ones today, is not that it will hurt the sound a lot, or even a little for most cases...

But i still love a full passive analog system also. I have both in reality and listen to both.

 

[RexrothPigeon]

I mean, there is obviously nothing wrong with not using DSP for all sorts of reasons, from lack of motivation to satisfaction without it.

The dumb and wrong thing is imagining that DSP somehow inherently bad for your signal. It's not for nothing that the loudest anti-DSP voices have old man (lack of) hearing and love vinyl.

 

[Subob]

iono, but i think what it takes to dsp is complicated for many. me, included.
i have a mini-dsp and it's never been used because ive not found much to describe what and why i would make changes to the flat peq to improve my sound.
got the gear, made the measurements but nothing says i adjust here<because >, or how or why. i think some just come up with stuff rather than admit it's daunting to them.
now, with wiim's room-fit, im good using it. im sure it isnt perfect but pretty good.
and it still doesn't tell me why i make adjustments to the peq. but, since it does the work for me, i use it.

I tend to agree. I'll be the first to admit that DSP is daunting to me.

From my very basic and limited understanding of DSP so far, good DSP requires the, possibly permanent?, use of a computer in your hifi set up, and of course a measurement mic for the initial set up. There's simply no way a computer can fit into my current hifi set up.

Like you, I have very recently set up the very simple to use Room fit on my Wiim Pro, and it's yielded some interesting results which I'm sticking with for now. So I'm not psychologically/philosophically opposed to DSP in the slightest, just not really in a position to be able to use it to its full potential at this point in time.

I'm also happy with the set up I have, so even if a full DSP set up were possible for me, I'm not sure I'm willing to go through the expense, learning curve and then time/effort of setting it all up.

 

[Newman]

Can anybody comment or clarify this mindset?

In theory you should have received one answer and a lot of '+' comments.

Hey, maybe you can open a poll at the top of this thread and list all the answers so far, and we can vote!

cheers