Psychological &/or philosophical rejection of DSP

[voodooless]

They are the same people that believe in all the other nonsenses, like labels, audiophile network switches and power generators.

All in the name of supposed “purity”…

The only thing pure here is the nonsense they’re peddling

 

[Mnyb]

They are the same people that believe in all the other nonsenses, like labels, audiophile network switches and power generators.

All in the name of supposed “purity”…

The only thing pure here is the nonsense they’re peddling

Yes people that thinks cat6 cables or power plugs sounds different of course also think any component matters such that any DSP even at unity gain with no eq applied will still produce some kind of veil and thus be impure

 

[Arindal]

Can anybody comment or clarify this mindset?

My guess would be that this aversion is partly originating from suboptimal EQs and ADC in the old days, which were in fact adding complexity, phaseshift and noise to an analogue chain.

I was always reluctant when it comes to an additional ADDA link in the chain, if only noise and distortion is sufficiently low enough. But when I measured and listened to what some 15 yrs ago was one of the first active DSP speakers with built-in phonostage and analogue input, I was surprised how much of really really ugly digital-shaped noise was coming out of the (high-efficiency) tweeter.

While this all might not be a problem anymore if one uses state-of-the-art gear and takes care of proper SNR, gain and alike, people are still afraid of it because some years ago this fear had a solid base and probably continues to do so in some cheaper products.

 

[Oddball]

Yes people that thinks cat6 cables or power plugs sounds different of course also think any component matters such that any DSP even at unity gain with no eq applied will still produce some kind of veil and thus be impure

I totally agree with you but when running cat6 cables one should probably avoid running them through the same tube as power cables, in fact they should be far apart. They tend to pick up noise like any other cable. If confident in your wiring, nothing wrong with cat6 up to certain length (which I don't know what it is but certainly there is a limit - never explored limits of tiny wires).

 

[Mnyb]

My current KEF LS60 + ROON or WiiM and former Meridian DSP5200 + G68J main system ,are completely dependent on DSP and would not work otherwise .

DSP assisted active crossover is the bees knees I think

I would argue that even Meridian’s 20 years old DSP introduces less problems than a single series inductor in a passive crossover .

I think DSP helps even passive designs by being a competitive alternative for the consumer.

You can’t just slapp drivers in a box with series capacitor to the tweeter and call it a day , just must do better as a speaker designer.

It’s also helps at the cheapest end many small Bluetooth speakers like the JBL “sausages” everyone has sounds better than they should.
How absolutely terrible did an old transistor radio or cheap ghetto blaster of the past sounded ?

 

[izeek]

I do think there's a lot to that. Me too, and I like such stuff. It IS complicated and the learning curve is pretty steep. It took me the better part of the year to make any reasonable sense of it and I can understand that many people don't want to do that. And that's a reasonable, rational response. But an enormous number of those folks do NOT say that. They come up with unsupportable ideological reasons or rationales like @Mort 's dad.

wouldnt you say spurious stuff versus "i dont understand?"

 

[Mnyb]

I totally agree with you but when running cat6 cables one should probably avoid running them through the same tube as power cables, in fact they should be far apart. They tend to pick up noise like any other cable. If confident in your wiring, nothing wrong with cat6 up to certain length (which I don't know what it is but certainly there is a limit - never explored limits of tiny wires).

100 meters is guaranteed it migth work for longer lengths. In industrial applications ( where I work ) we tend to go optical when connecting different parts of an industrial plant. In my small ( normal Swedish middle class house ) I se no problems pulling cat cables everywhere, but they are not in the same conduits as the power cables ofcourse.

If you put switches at strategic locations the individual cables are not that long in a typical house .

 

[Mort]

DSP dogma can cut both ways. While it is foolish and close minded to dismiss all DSP it is also foolish and close minded to believe that pressing a button on an automatic full range DSP solution assures you of the best possible results.

There is some of that, but I think less. Definitely not here anyway so my sample might be biased.

 

[oleg87]

Most audiophiles are wildly ignorant on technical matters and it's really not worth concerning yourself with their quirks and belief systems.

 

[JayGilb]

Most audiophiles are wildly ignorant on technical matters and it's really not worth concerning yourself with their quirks and belief systems.

 

[Oddball]

Well it's like medicine. You need to know the symptoms and than apply the right DSP brand and dose.

Not doing that? Well, you are in the past and your system is likely obsolete but nobody is saying you actually need to upgrade it. It is a fair game and outcomes are predictable.

 

[0bs3rv3r]

There's another reason I didn't see mentioned (sorry if I missed it). It is simply that lingering doubt that DSP might have a negative effect on the sound. It is safer to stick with what you already have - analogue amplifiers and speaker placement and room treatments. No need for all the trouble and complication of something too new that might introduce all sorts of gremlins.

 

[krabapple]

OK that's settled, now let's do two channel vs multichannel.

 

[Oddball]

There's another reason I didn't see mentioned (sorry if I missed it). It is simply that lingering doubt that DSP might have a negative effect on the sound. It is safer to stick with what you already have - analogue amplifiers and speaker placement and room treatments. No need for all the trouble and complication of something too new that might introduce all sorts of gremlins.

There was a mod on another forum with extensive room treatments and large multichannel system and when he tried ART on top of it his comment was that room disappeared. Room treatments remain challenged in sub 100hz range and better way to do that is DBA or equivalent setup but that requires 4 subs and lots of calcs, not to mention placing.

What most audiophiles are listening right now is a far cry from what they could hear if they embraced new DSP solutions.

Situations where people are happy with no subs are separate. I wish them all the best. It is their choice.

 

[Jiraya369]

psychological element

you got it bud.

it's an emotional thing, they attach emotional aspects to help justify their purchases. Social validation, Self-centered nature leading to thinking they have "golden ears", attaching emotions to everything to make it seem more than it really is.

It's why they hate scientific stuff, it disproves their reality and also makes them come to terms with the fact that their spending is useless, a first world problem really, where you have so much money you just need to make excuses to use that money up and then spend the rest of your life convincing yourself and others that it was totally worth it.

 

[amirm]

Can anybody comment or clarify this mindset?

Well, it starts at the top with the belief among many high-end audiophiles that analog is the best format. And that at best, after spending maybe $100K on DACs and cables, digital can kind of, sort of, get close to analog (LP). Given the fact that DSP works in digital domain, that is antithetical to everything these folks believe.

In other words, before you can convince them to use DSP, you have to convince them that digital is at least as good as analog. Without this, you can't proceed. I know of high-end audiophiles that scuffed at the idea of having a network connection in a new media room built in a multi-million dollar home. He said he would be dead or buried before needing that network connection for a streamer! Of course a couple of years later he started to use a streaming service "but only for sampling." Real listening was still LP.

That said, there is a segment of high-end subjectivists that does use digital. For them, the issue becomes lack of DSP knowledge and where to put such EQ. To get better sound, they keep replacing DACs and cables instead of thinking for a second that DSP is needed. After all, they will say they have the best speakers in the world and that it sound like a live music recital!

Bottom line, you are facing a more fundamental issue with such folks. They simply won't go there for illogical, and non-engineering/non-scientific reasons.

In my view, DSP is mandatory for any system whether it is with speakers or with just about any headphone system. You are getting colorations without it.

 

[MattHooper]

Not everyone has to be an ignorant science-denying audiophile to not use DSP.

I don’t use DSP. (Well, not for my 2 channel system… I sometimes use the room correction for my home theatre system via my AV receiver).

I don’t have a technical case against it - it’s clearly very useful.
I certainly understand why other people take advantage of DSP/ room correction.

But part of me still is a bit old school.

For a while I had dual subs with DSP/correction on the subs to even things out. And it was…. OK. But ultimately preferred the sound of my system without it, and I especially didn’t care for the extra gear and cables and everything so I got rid of it.

Technically, of course, I could still use DSP for my floor standing two channel speakers. I don’t for a couple of reasons. The first that I just don’t feel any need. I’ve been able to dial in my system to a high level of satisfaction without it.

A while back as I detailed in a thread on this forum I went down the road of trying all sorts of footers and materials beneath my speakers to check out the results and I ultimately built a marble base for the speakers, with various levels of coupling and decoupling involved.

I could’ve instead fiddled with DSP and room correction, but again I’d sort of been there with the subs/DSP set up, and again probably being a bit old-school, there was just something to me more fun and satisfying deal dealing with physical things. For my work, I’m manipulate sound all day long on my DAW. For my two channel I enjoy going a bit retro with physical stuff.

The second is more conceptual:

I listen to records somewhat more than I do my digital source, and I don’t want that part of the system digitized. This is not on technical grounds. In POST PRODUCTION, I work with high-quality digital sound, and I’m quite aware that I could digitize the output of my turntable transparently in audible terms. But conceptually, I prefer to keep the analogue part of my system analogue. That’s part of its charm for me. It’s a little like choosing to read a paperback on the sofa rather than reading the book on my phone or an iPad or whatever. It’s a little escape from the digital world. And when I’m spinning records generally it sounds fantastic to me and I don’t for a single second think “ darn I really need to run this all through DSP!”

 

[Somafunk]

This all strikes me as snake oil adjacent at best. Can anybody comment or clarify this mindset? Or am I getting it all wrong? Thanks and cheers,

The so called “audiophile” crowd disappeared up their own arse years ago and are thankfully a dying breed desperately clinging on to their beliefs , to speak out against them is to threaten their existence so it’s only natural that cornered animals tend to get a bit defensive

 

[Jiraya369]

They are the same people that believe in all the other nonsenses, like labels, audiophile network switches and power generators.

All in the name of supposed “purity”…

The only thing pure here is the nonsense they’re peddling

if you talk about transparency they say nothing can be as natural as the original recording which itself is somehow "distorted" and "not natural" or something

yet they spend thousands on bullshit like them power supplies or something.

 

[DWPress]

I think a lot of the problem is the learning curve to do it right. You have to educate yourself at least a bit about the terminology, reading graphs, what "Q" is in the PEQ, and so much more if you really want to refine things or add some sub(s). You need to at least buy a measurement mic and learn how to use it with REW which is daunting in itself. It's an investment in time and money.

Automated solutions are by far the most accessible and are also very easy to screw up. So lots of people try it, don't like it (never measure it) make a few more guesses then go back to what their speakers have trained their ears as "normal". Sometimes they get lucky. Hopefully it encourages them to learn more.