• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

PSI monitors

richard12511

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 23, 2020
Messages
4,335
Likes
6,700
I tend to prefer analog active myself but that's more because of the zero latency aspect than anything else, and with a good design they're good enough as to not matter.

Agreed, and the KH310 is a good example of that. I like what Kii does where they have a full DSP mode(for when latency doesn't matter), as well as a low latency mode.
 

YSC

Major Contributor
Joined
Dec 31, 2019
Messages
3,194
Likes
2,570
Personally I quite liked their design, but at the price I normally prefer either Genelec/Neumann for C/P ratio, or if design with good enough sound I prefer focal
 

AM88

Member
Joined
Mar 8, 2019
Messages
92
Likes
114
Still looks pretty good tbh, at least in my opinion. Maybe not Genelec/Neumann good, but I've seen far worse(ex: PMC) for the price. From the googling I've been doing, they seem somewhat like ATC. Better than most passives, but not top tier for actives. Price is too high imo(which is I guess your point), but it seems that - like ATC - they've built a name that people are willing to pay more for than the actual performance justifies.
Having heard genelecs I would say they are as good and are top tier monitors. Anyone interested should try to have a listen personally and from what I remember each pair comes with their real measured frequency response chart, whilst not being all u need it is more than most provide….
 

pozz

Слава Україні
Forum Donor
Editor
Joined
May 21, 2019
Messages
4,036
Likes
6,827
Still looks pretty good tbh, at least in my opinion. Maybe not Genelec/Neumann good, but I've seen far worse(ex: PMC) for the price. From the googling I've been doing, they seem somewhat like ATC. Better than most passives, but not top tier for actives. Price is too high imo(which is I guess your point), but it seems that - like ATC - they've built a name that people are willing to pay more for than the actual performance justifies.
They haven't quite got ATC's legendary status but I agree. I tend to think that PSI has better, more modern design than ATC as well. The internals are certainly more complicated with that cascade of allpass filters.
1625469902917.png


If we rewind the clock a few years there was no good measurement data available outside of S&R (PSI datasheets publish DI as well as on axis FR and phase, which is pretty good). I really believe that has harmed manufacturers more than they are aware. They set a price point according their own sense of reasonability and costs and functioned because, using a term from finance, price discovery was limited. Consumers didn't know what they were getting for the money, and manufacturers weren't sure what they were selling for the money relative to their competitors. Or they could make believe they were selling to different markets/demographics and did not have to directly compete because they filled some niche.

Now that you can directly compare between speakers and prices globally by using measurement data, PSI tends to look worse. Take the earlier version of the A14M, measured by S&R in 2009:
1625470457513.png

1625470480009.png

The current version definitely shows some improvements, particularly in correcting that 1.5kHz dip and decreasing the amount and intensity of resonances, but is otherwise largely the same.

Similar strengths/problems recur in the larger A17M (measured in the same article):
1625470826190.png

Again a dip, some resonances, and semi consistent horizontal directivity, unremarkable vertical directivity.

1625470890914.png


The current PSI series in CAD looks like this (price for one):
  • A25M: $6.9k
  • A23M: $6.3k
  • A21M: $4k
  • A17M: $2.5k
  • A14M: $1.9K
The price of one A14M is equal to two KH120s. When you get to the largest speaker the price discrepancy evens out: $6.5k for KH420 and $7k for a Genelec 8361A. (The last three links are to S&R reviews.)

I think the main things to fault them about are the insufficient waveguides, directivity and potential resonances. Even if they consider their results sufficient and justifiable, the tradeoffs don't seem worthwhile in my eyes. But this is only because the data is more or less available. I would not have been able to make an informed decision before, and didn't.
 

FeddyLost

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
May 24, 2020
Messages
752
Likes
542
think the main things to fault them about are the insufficient waveguides, directivity and potential resonances.
Horizontal directivity is decent for 20+ years old enclosure design (and most probably slightly improved with new A23 and A25-2021 "conedomed" - LOL - mid)
Vertical directivity is not an issue in classical studio approach when engineer works in properly oriented triangle with correct height and and all early reflections are suppressed, so they just don't care. For home use except nearfield "desktop speakers" it's almost prohibitive attribute.
Resonances and CSD are questionable, and need evaluation of construction. Most probably, their total removal was found not critical for A14 use case.

Even if they consider their results sufficient and justifiable, the tradeoffs don't seem worthwhile in my eyes.
For sure, it's not the best vendor for home use. Zero delay have no value there, vertical directivity is bad, FR is extremely flat with polymer drivers with non-SOTA motors (i.e. in fact you have limited range of working SPL).
And i have suspicion that electronics also still from Studer times with long chain of old TL072 op-amps. That would contribute for some distant and non involving sound signature if low-level signal is blurred by a lot of active filtering.
Maybe I'll partially disassemble my A14 to check this.
 

FeddyLost

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
May 24, 2020
Messages
752
Likes
542
Maybe I'll partially disassemble my A14 to check this
Yes, they are still filled with TL072 ... (((
100VA transformer with switchable primaries by TECA, two big Nichicon caps, and 4 small power transistors.
Very old-fashioned industrial design. Still Studer legacy for good or bad.
 

mononoaware

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Apr 6, 2021
Messages
816
Likes
669
I may be mistaken, but I thought the interesting feature PSI Audio claimed to use in their monitors was some kind of "Cabinet resonance control system".
I assumed it was some kind of feedback system that minimizes/equalizes cabinet resonances throughout the entire frequency range.

I am not sure where I read it but I currently cannot find the information on their official website.

Does this sound familiar to anyone else?
 

FeddyLost

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
May 24, 2020
Messages
752
Likes
542
may be mistaken, but I thought the interesting feature PSI Audio claimed to use in their monitors was some kind of "Cabinet resonance control system
No such feature ever mentioned.
They just make cabinet rigid and heavy, simple glued HDF (MDF) and not much damping.
I'd say it's not state of the art at all, but with their labor costs better solution would improve performance to 5% and twice the cost...
 
Joined
Mar 18, 2021
Messages
19
Likes
42
Last time I checked these in a Swiss shop:

_AR30802wall-V.jpg


From a completely untrained and subjective perspective: PSI Audio, Genelec and Neumann sounded mostly the same in stereo. Yamaha sounded wrong. Dynaudio sounded more fun (bright?). Most impressive for the price were JBL and IK Multimedia. The seller said the PSI Audio monitors had more "depth".

For home use, only the KH 310 had enough bass to be enjoyable on their own in my opinion.
 

FeddyLost

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
May 24, 2020
Messages
752
Likes
542
Last time I checked these in a Swiss shop:
Did you use exact placement as pictured?
I suppose so if you was able to listen to all mentioned brands.

PSI Audio, Genelec and Neumann sounded mostly the same in stereo
As expected. Competent design with similar goals and equally bad placement.

The seller said the PSI Audio monitors had more "depth".
Exactly. But it can be achieved in good room with proper placement, not in such "demo array".

For home use, only the KH 310 had enough bass
34 Hz at -3 db it's as good as small subwoofer. For sure it's enough.
But in real room without DRC it's not always good...
 

mononoaware

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Apr 6, 2021
Messages
816
Likes
669
No such feature ever mentioned.
They just make cabinet rigid and heavy, simple glued HDF (MDF) and not much damping.
I'd say it's not state of the art at all, but with their labor costs better solution would improve performance to 5% and twice the cost...

Hm strange. I swear it was PSI Audio. . .
I thought I may have confused their Monitor for their Active bass trap but no. . .

It had something to do with either detecting cabinet resonance, or predicting it with an algorithm, then adjusting the signal in order to remove or minimise it at least to the degree of less guilty frequencies.
Maybe I was reading an article before I looked at PSI Audio. . .
 

DSJR

Major Contributor
Joined
Jan 27, 2020
Messages
3,314
Likes
4,427
Location
Suffolk Coastal, UK
Last time I checked these in a Swiss shop:

View attachment 152052

From a completely untrained and subjective perspective: PSI Audio, Genelec and Neumann sounded mostly the same in stereo. Yamaha sounded wrong. Dynaudio sounded more fun (bright?). Most impressive for the price were JBL and IK Multimedia. The seller said the PSI Audio monitors had more "depth".

For home use, only the KH 310 had enough bass to be enjoyable on their own in my opinion.

Oh Lordy, a 'wall of speakers' just as we used to have in more refined form in the 70's dem rooms... You can't judge bass AT ALL under such dem facilities sadly as the unplayed pairs will be absorbing bass from the pair you're trying to hear (first hand repeatable experience but obviously subjective).

Still, for a domestic buyer, probably the only way to hear any of these sadly...
 

prestigetone

Active Member
Joined
Feb 12, 2021
Messages
246
Likes
252
I have the A23 and the 125 subs stacked. They sound phenomenal. I think they are better than the older 25s to my ears. Ive had lots in my room. Twotwo8, PMC AML2, A25s, Neumann, Barefoot, Event audio etc, and to my ears the PSI just sound the best. I'd love to try D&D at some point but the volume control and electronics pose logistical problems. A good dac and you've got a system that will best most in my mind.
 

807Recordings

Member
Joined
Sep 16, 2021
Messages
96
Likes
128
These guys spread so much of the same audio myths crap it is sickening. You want to believe in the underdog but they simply perpetuate myths. His main monitors are not even ATC but something he got from some other studio, that apparently had one of the designers from ATC make.

I am not commenting if they are good producers or not as this is not relevant.
 
OP
Pearljam5000

Pearljam5000

Master Contributor
Joined
Oct 12, 2020
Messages
5,125
Likes
5,355
These guys spread so much of the same audio myths crap it is sickening. You want to believe in the underdog but they simply perpetuate myths. His main monitors are not even ATC but something he got from some other studio, that apparently had one of the designers from ATC make.

I am not commenting if they are good producers or not as this is not relevant.
They are ATC fans from other videos I've seen
 
Last edited:

prestigetone

Active Member
Joined
Feb 12, 2021
Messages
246
Likes
252
Wow those reviewers are just awful. It’s like they are trying to make a studio monitor review into a kids morning show. And they don’t even say anything meaningful about the speakers.

Having had the older version of the 25s I can easily say they are magnificent and truly in a league of their own. A better mid driver would be a welcome addition. Everyone says atc is the gold standard but they don’t bother saying why. Which would be nice.

My only gripe with psi is the finish is fragile af. They need a better paint or something.
 

FeddyLost

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
May 24, 2020
Messages
752
Likes
542
they are some so called Quested
Some custom 3-way from Roger Quested with JBL woofer, ATC superdome and Audax tweeter. When properly engineered, such combination might still sound very good. For sure, they will not be SOTA now and amount of qualified labor for good result will make commercial price prohibitive.
Current Quested designs looks very reminiscent, but check prices...
 
Top Bottom