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PS Audio Stellar Review (Phono Preamplifier)

Labjr

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I thought analog was better than digital 25 years ago. But I believe advances in ADC and DAC technology have moved digital ahead of analog. Where digital really shines is on classical and jazz, acoustic music etc.

Now some people may still prefer the euphonic coloration of vinyl but that's a different argument. With multitrack overdubbed pop recordings that are mixed down and processed, is it really about accurate sound reproduction?
 

Langston Holland

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The cambridge Audio Duo was measured with double the input signal. The SINAD that i have with it is more along the lines of 60 dB since it's mains hum limited.

I wish @amirm would standardize the input signal levels for amplifiers and phono stages, this way we can have the fairest comparision possible between devices.

I see your point, but you're not considering some things that would answer your criticism if you looked a little deeper.

1. He has standardized input signal levels for MM to 5mV. The Cambridge Duo was his 5th phono preamp review and he was still experimenting with the procedures that would best reveal the behavior of these devices. Amir is doing some stuff around here and doing it in a way that nobody else is largely because he's (wonderfully) free of corporate obligation in his "retirement".

2. I just finished my first (and probably last) phono preamp review and it's pretty decent and adheres to standards because I copied Amir's ideas and work. Who did he have to copy? Stereophile? He's the ice breaker and we're throwing peanuts at him from the cheap seats in the balcony. : )

3. On the SINAD reading between the Cambridge Duo and PS Audio Stellar, as you observed, the Duo used an 11.3mV generator voltage and the Stellar (as well as all his contemporary reviews) use a 5.0mV generator voltage. SINAD is a measure of how far the signal is above noise and distortion in dB. 5.0mV is 7dB lower than 11.3mV. We know that noise won't go down when we reduce the generator voltage, but distortion obviously will be reduced, therefore the Duo's SINAD level would have gone down less than 7dB using 5.0mV. Nevertheless, let's assume that magically noise AND distortion remained the same while dropping the signal by 7dB. This means that the Duo would have had a SINAD level of 90dB - 7dB = 83dB.

4. The PS Audio Stellar has a SINAD around 65dB at the 5.0mV generator voltage.
 
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levimax

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why does anyone need a phono preamp?
qobuz, apple music etc.
I just don't get it.
If you are happy listening to the latest "remaster" of artistically and historically significant older music then there is no reason for vinyl or even CD and streaming is all you need. If you are interested in what older music originally sounded like before it was re-mastered then vinyl and original CD's can be very rewarding. There may even be a few examples of new recordings that are more dynamic on vinyl than streaming due to the limitations of vinyl playback (vinyl can not play back super loud compressed music which is the current style of mastering).
 

Hilltop

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PLEASE be very well aware of the extreme character of your Exact cartridge ;)
It tracks my heavy metal/rock records amazingly. Sales suggeted the exact over the Ania/Pro due to my taste in music.
 

KMN

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I see your point, but you're not considering some things that would answer your criticism if you looked a little deeper.

1. He has standardized input signal levels for MM to 5mV. The Cambridge Duo was his 5th phono preamp review and he was still experimenting with the procedures that would best reveal the behavior of these devices. Amir is doing some stuff around here and doing it in a way that nobody else is largely because he's (wonderfully) free of corporate obligation in his "retirement".

2. I just finished my first (and probably last) phono preamp review and it's pretty decent and adheres to standards because I copied Amir's ideas and work. Who did he have to copy? Stereophile? He's the ice breaker and we're throwing peanuts at him from the cheap seats in the balcony. : )

3. On the SINAD reading between the Cambridge Duo and PS Audio Stellar, as you observed, the Duo used an 11.3mV generator voltage and the Stellar (as well as all his contemporary reviews) use a 5.0mV generator voltage. SINAD is a measure of how far the signal is above noise and distortion in dB. 5.0mV is 7dB lower than 11.3mV. We know that noise won't go down when we reduce the generator voltage, but distortion obviously will be reduced, therefore the Duo's SINAD level would have gone down less than 7dB using 5.0mV. Nevertheless, let's assume that magically noise AND distortion remained the same while dropping the signal by 7dB. This means that the Duo would have had a SINAD level of 90dB - 7dB = 83dB.

4. The PS Audio Stellar has a SINAD around 65dB at the 5.0mV generator voltage.
You may have missed what may be the most important point of all. As the experts have explained on this forum many times, but most continue to ignore including Amir apparently, the tests are largely meaningless due to the method of testing Amir has explained he uses for the SINAD testing. He has explained he shorts the inputs for those tests. By doing this, he has created a vey unrealistiic test case that does not resemble the way these phono preamps will behave in a real world use case. The problem is, most of us listen to moving magnet cartridges in the real world which have significant inductance, not short circuits. The fact that the problem with the test methodology has been shown to be flawed, Amir chooses to not even address this point (that I am aware of anyway) continues carrying out the flawed test, suggests he either doesn't understand what he's doing wrong technically or has some other unexplained reasoning for doing unrealistic testing which props higher current noise designs way higher on the test result winners chart than they would presumably be if the testing was a bit more realistic. Either way, doesn't look good.
 
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ctbarker32

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Aside from the KORF blog, I don't know of anybody is looking objectively at how to improve playing back records. Does anybody have good resources to check out here?
Tooting my own horn here but I can recommend my own YouTube channel DIY HiFI Life. I have gone pretty deep into vinyl playback topics with more to come. My four part VPI HW-19 rebuild series is very in depth.
 

Langston Holland

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He has explained he shorts the inputs for those tests.

I certainly miss stuff all the time, thus I'm learning all the time. : ) I'll look into this, but it's not possible to do a SINAD (or any kind of distortion) test without a generated signal fed into the DUT, thus I don't see how the inputs could be shorted. Maybe you're referring to a pure noise test where shorting the inputs is standard technique and certainly results in the lowest possible noise reading.*

On the other hand, your point does make me think that simulating a "typical" MM output impedance** while injecting the generator signal could produce a bit better SINAD results due to the rolloff and much worse frequency response results for the same reason. On the other, other hand the fact that Amir has standardized his methods to those used by the industry (to the best of my knowledge), means that useful comparisons can be made. I've also never seen evidence that any mfg. uses simulated MM loads to publish their specs.

* This testing practice comes from modern "bridging circuit" audio transmission design (in contrast to old-school telecom with matched 600Ω interfaces). Modern circuits employ low output impedances and high input impedances.

** MC output impedances are so low that it would be reasonable to simply continue using the analyzer's output to terminate the DUT input.
 
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KMN

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I certainly miss stuff all the time, thus I'm learning all the time. : ) I'll look into this, but it's not possible to do a SINAD (or any kind of distortion) test without a generated signal fed into the DUT, thus I don't see how the inputs could be shorted. Maybe you're referring to a pure noise test where shorting the inputs is standard technique and certainly results in the lowest possible noise reading.*

On the other hand, your point does make me think that simulating a "typical" MM output impedance** while injecting the generator signal could produce more real-world (probably a bit worse) results. On the other, other hand the fact that Amir has standardized his methods means that useful comparisons can be made IMO. I've also never seen evidence that any mfg. uses simulated MM loads to publish their specs.

* This testing practice comes from modern "bridging circuit" audio transmission design (in contrast to old-school telecom with matched 600Ω interfaces). Modern circuits employ low output impedances and high input impedances.

** MC output impedances are so low that it would be reasonable to simply continue using the analyzer's output to terminate the DUT input.
No your are right. I clearly hadn't thought through what I was saying and was thinking of SNR testing.. But as you point out, unless the signal generator has the inductance, the SINAD test also misses the current noise contribution. That was the point I should have made if I was thinking as clearly as you were. Thanks for pointing out my mistake. It seems you understand the problem. But the original point I was trying to make that if Amirs testing completely ignores the factors that are significant in the real world, what use is a standardized test that hides reality?
 
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KMN

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I've also never seen evidence that any mfg. uses simulated MM loads to publish their specs.
I don't know what the right answer is. For example could you show results with a range of inductances? That could get to be too tedious in the extreme. Perhaps a typical, a worst case, and best case cart model comparison? At least engage and embrace the conversation while soliciting for ideas about possible solutions rather than sweep it under the rug? There is a big problem in the industry where manufacturers give meaningless quoted specs. "SNR = 90dB" doesn't mean much just sitting there all by itself without the conditions of the testing. My frustration comes since in general most of the reviews seem really great then there is this glaring ommission in the greatness. Once you see it , it is the only thing you can see.
 

SIY

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Easiest way is what I do- use an old MM with known inductance and DCR and compare the results to shorted in. This allows you to determine the current noise.

With modern FET input phono stages, current noise is usually negligible. But there are exceptions, most notoriously the stunningly awful Lounge preamp.
 

KMN

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I don't think the Cambridge uses any fets in its front end but it resides at the top of the heap since almost the beginning. Is it a justified win?
 

SIY

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I don't think the Cambridge uses any fets in its front end but it resides at the top of the heap since almost the beginning. Is it a justified win?
Haven't tried it. They make some excellent products, so... maybe.

As either (or both of) you or @Langston Holland pointed out, it's only relevant to MM and maybe a few high output MC edge cases.
 

DSJR

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It tracks my heavy metal/rock records amazingly. Sales suggeted the exact over the Ania/Pro due to my taste in music.
AT740 would be my choice as it's not quite as 'keen' as the cheaper 540 using the same stylus and I believe, same basic body. It maintains a pretty flat and neutral response up top which maybe you'd need adjusting to.
 

Langston Holland

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Why do I have this sneaking suspicion that Amir isn't responding to this little thread diversion because he's waiting for us to catch up? : )

It was reasonably proposed that we simulate a MM output impedance from the analyzer output when measuring SINAD and possibly other phono preamp transfer function characteristics.

The first thing that came to mind was LTSpice and it appears there's no upside and a fair amount of downside to adding the reactive behavior of a MM cartridge to the generator output. (Edit 28 Sept 2021: I'm not so sure there's no upside anymore. I've ordered an appropriate inductor to do some experimenting. TBA.)

Per the simulation plot below, the response for the lowest and highest unbalanced output impedances selectable in the APx analyzer (20Ω and 600Ω) make no difference. The typical input impedance of a phono preamp (the vertical parallel resistor and capacitor) is a non-player here.

OTOH, the simulation of the typical MM output impedance (the horizontal series resistor and inductor) makes a big difference. Now I know what MM cartridge designers are dealing with. For the cartridge to have a flat response to 20kHz or so, the magnetomechanical (!) output of the cartridge will have to approximate the inverse of that curve. No doubt the electrical curve was designed on purpose to deal with the realities of MM cartridge technology decades ago. Nevertheless, it's all baked into the design now just as moving mass, mechanical and electrical compliances are baked into loudspeaker driver design.

LTSpice Simulation
MM Electrical TF Parallel.png


1. SINAD is measured by injecting a 1kHz tone (at 5mV for MM) into the DUT, then comparing that to the sum of all the other stuff that shows up in the bandwidth of interest (20-20k). With phono preamps, most of the offense will be noise to the left of 1kHz, while the 5mV signal is unlikely to generate much distortion to the right of 1kHz. Thus the HF rolloff you see in the MM cartridge output simulation is unlikely to materially move the SINAD needle.

2. Frequency response data using the MM cartridge simulation circuit would earn derision worldwide. That's fine if everyone else is wrong and we discovered the truth, but is this really the truth? Seems to me that the reactive interplay between cartridge and preamp is a design constant that can be ignored unless you get a preamp that has reactive adjustability. Then you might add the MM simulation circuit in addition to the standard measurement method.

3. SIY's method of performing noise measurements with a real cartridge attached to the input makes a lot of sense. It's possible that it won't move the needle enough to make it worth the hassle, such as shielding to prevent it from becoming an antenna in a busy lab environment.

4. All the published phono preamp specs use standard analyzer I/O's, so adopting a reactive method for signal based measurement is going to need justification. Even then you'd probably have to also provide industry standard measurements. The goal around here to help people make informed purchase decisions (or have fun pretending to), and that's tough if your measurements can't be compared to the mfg. data.

5. My interest in home audio began in 1983 when Sony released the CDP-101 for $900 with no possibility of discount. I still have the CD that came with it. In 2021 I'm learning about record players! Before long someone's gonna discover fire! : )

God bless you and your precious family - Langston

Edit: I screwed up the circuit! Something bothered me about the series RC phono preamp load. I looked at some schematics and sure enough it's supposed to be parallel. Thus I lied for about an hour and a half. Better than usual. : ) The simulation has been corrected, oddly the conclusions remain the same.
 
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KMN

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Thus the HF bump you see in the MM cartridge output simulation is unlikely to materially move the SINAD needle.
I can't see any mistakes in your technical analysis, but it just seems like a bad idea to suggest that since we assume the result wont matter is an acceptable excuse for not verifying our assumptions. Besides, even if if the SINAD needle stays completely unchanged, it it is not as though having more realistc spectral noise floor response differences due to varying preamp circuit topologies showing up in plots taken with a signal generator capable of closely modelling real world MM cartridge impdance, would not be completely fascinating and completely worth seeing if at all possible. It is like when Amir explains that even though one DAC, as compared to another, has varying levels of signs of susceptibility to mains frequency in the audio, since it is below the threshold of a moving SINAD needle, that is not interesting in any way shape r form. I'm just not buying that argument, since I find it very interesting. Not that I am not completely insane. Best regards, and God bless you all too!
 

BDWoody

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why does anyone need a phono preamp?
qobuz, apple music etc.
I just don't get it.

For some of us, it's just fun to play records. I also like driving my car with the stickshift, knowing the DCT would have been both easier and faster.

May not be your cup of tea, but it isn't that hard to 'get.'
 

raif71

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Really?
What is that going to tell you?
SINAD is -80dB; Response is +/-1dB; Separation is 40dB.
Is that gonna make you sleep any better or are you willing to get poopoo'd by the digital crowd?
Or will it make you enjoy your current rig less and force you to a$pire for higher audio bli$$?
You already know the answers; which lie between your ears and consider just enjoying them w/o the #s.
Man...look at all the sibilant sounds. Torture for the ears :)
 
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