PS Audio PowerPlant P12 Amplifier Tests (Video)

[MattHooper]

People have been saying the same thing for as long as I can remember in high end audio "what, this debate again? Same thing, no one changes their mind."

But in fact, while certainly there are always people who will dig in their heels, some people do change their minds. And there are tons of people who just don't know either way, who can be educated. Plenty of lurkers who haven't any set in stone position. And there are new people getting in to the hobby all the time. The reddit forums for instance are just filled with new audiophiles asking questions. So long as information comes out, it's always valuable.

In fact, as someone who is not really a "techie" the exchanges on these issues through the years have been immensely valuable to me.

Just to add to the above: I frequent many different audio forums and Amirm's reviews, especially the video reviews, are often posted in the forums for discussion. Especially on the reddit audiophile community thread, pretty much every Amirm review is posted and discussed, and that's a place where tons of "newbies" gather. So I think it's really making an impact (which I can see from many of the comments in those discussions).

 

[MattHooper]

So much energy spent on these discussions and Amirm testing the product.

If PS Audio wants to demonstrate the value, why don’t they just publish their methods and results?

Maybe I am too much the scientist…..

It's because, to quote a PS Audio customer in the PS Audio thread, he ignored most of Amirm's review:

"as I don’t know the first thing about electronic engineering and I don’t have any interest in knowing either."

That likely represents most of PS Audio's current (see what I did there?) customer base.

(BTW, I do not have a problem with any audiophile being ignorant about electronics. Or not even wanting to delve in to the technicalities.
I'm often lazy enough that way myself and to each his own. It's just when people make boldly assertive claims FROM such a state of ignorance - "I don't care about how it works, but I know it does because I think it does, and anyone disputing my claim including educated engineers are just being a**holes" - that puts discussions in to a death spiral).

 

[TheBatsEar]

It's just when people make boldly assertive claims FROM such a state of ignorance - "I don't care about how it works, but I know it does because I think it does, and anyone disputing my claim including educated engineers are just being a**holes" - that puts discussions in to a death spiral).

There is an explanation i would like to offer.
Most people never think. It's not because they can't think, it's because they never learned to think. They confuse thinking with feeling.

And so they feel this and that, state nonsense, and believe everything is fine.

 

[Ismapics]

Yeh, I actually use some of the statements PS Audio makes in that thread in this video.

Incredibly there are 385 reply of people happy with spending money blindly and they dont seem to grasp the meaning of Placebo Effect. They all cannot be that dumb. So they are just brained washed by decades of marketing and FOMO by the "audiophile" community. Also, they all must be really upset that ASR just debunked items they have paid thousands for, it must feel bad for the ego compromised.

 

[brandall10]

There is an explanation i would like to offer.
Most people never think. It's not because they can't think, it's because they never learned to think. They confuse thinking with feeling.

And so they feel this and that, state nonsense, and believe everything is fine.

The ultimate issue though is we're talking about devices that reproduce emotion, and much of the marketing in hifi represents uplifting the emotional experience.

It's hard to reduce that to a purely engineering exercise, even though that's really all it is when you're talking about accuracy of reproduction.

A 'good' NOS DAC or tube amp certainly sounded different to my ears, and that difference to me just seemed more natural, even though conceptually I understood distortion was part of it, it was the good kind. You start to take on this mindset of stuff that is engineered well can be harsh or etchy or whatnot... like maybe you don't want something reproduced to a high degree of accuracy, you want it to sound better than that, confoundingly.

I was pretty steadfast about that assertion and because of that it opened the door for all sorts of other things... cables (power/headphone/speaker), power conditioners, anti-jitter/reclocker devices, etc.

 

[DonR]

The ultimate issue though is we're talking about devices that reproduce emotion, and much of the marketing in hifi represents uplifting the emotional experience.

It's hard to reduce that to a purely engineering exercise, even though that's really all it is when you're talking about accuracy of reproduction.

A 'good' NOS DAC or tube amp certainly sounded different to my ears, and that difference to me just seemed more natural, even though conceptually I understood distortion was part of it, it was the good kind. You start to take on this mindset of stuff that is engineered well can be harsh or etchy or whatnot... like maybe you don't want something reproduced to a high degree of accuracy, you want it to sound better than that, confoundingly.

I was pretty steadfast about that assertion and because of that it opened the door for all sorts of other things... cables (power/headphone/speaker), power conditioners, anti-jitter/reclocker devices, etc.

Devices reproduce sound (speakers) or electrical signals. The engineering is straightforward and has been understood for many decades. The emotional response is generated in your head. These things need to be separated.

 

[brandall10]

Devices reproduce sound (speakers) or electrical signals. The engineering is straightforward and has been understood for many decades. The emotional response is generated in your head. These things need to be separated.

By reproduce emotion, I meant music.

 

[JayGilb]

Incredibly there are 385 reply of people happy with spending money blindly and they dont seem to grasp the meaning of Placebo Effect. They all cannot be that dumb. So they are just brained washed by decades of marketing and FOMO by the "audiophile" community. Also, they all must be really upset that ASR just debunked items they have paid thousands for, it must feel bad for the ego compromised.

Dunning-Kruger Effect

 

[DonR]

By reproduce emotion, I meant music.

Music is simply waveforms captured by microphones or digitizers. If we ascribe more to them than they are, it's no wonder we have products that do nothing but claim to do wonders.

 

[Chester]

I had a quick skim of the PS Audio thread. My my there’s a fairly consistent theme of arrogance, which is likely a key contributor. Arrogant people don’t value other people’s opinions at the best of time, let alone when they question something of theirs (on this occasion, their exceptional ears and very shrewd purchases).

Don’t get me wrong, we have plenty of arrogance over here but it’s definitely in the minority.

What I found quite fascinating is how Paul generally answers with a non answer in what I would consider quite an obvious way, yet no one is challenging him.

Rule one of PS club: Do not question the McGowan…..

 

[TheBatsEar]

What I found quite fascinating is how Paul generally answers with a non answer in what I would consider quite an obvious way, yet no one is challenging him.

I guess it's a tribe. You don't want to be the odd one.

 

[brandall10]

Music is simply waveforms captured by microphones or digitizers. If we ascribe more to them than they are, it's no wonder we have products that do nothing but claim to do wonders.

You're preaching to the choir - I'm trying to explain the mindset.

 

[amirm]

It's because, to quote a PS Audio customer in the PS Audio thread, he ignored most of Amirm's review:

"as I don’t know the first thing about electronic engineering and I don’t have any interest in knowing either."

Yet he will tell another audiophile to buy it because it cleans up AC, has lower impedance, etc. He will pretend to know the electrical engineering and run with it. When shown he doesn't, then he says he doesn't care.

 

[H-713]

Music is simply waveforms captured by microphones or digitizers. If we ascribe more to them than they are, it's no wonder we have products that do nothing but claim to do wonders.

The engineering is known and straightforward.

Music, however, is a form of art, and as such has much more complicated (and emotional) meanings to people than most other signals. For that reason, it's really hard for a lot of people to think about the equipment for what it is, and otherwise logical people (including very smart engineers and scientists) will make questionable decisions about it. This does not mean that they are dumb people, and it does not mean that they don't understand the physics.

Emotion can make smart people do or say things that they should know better than. Nobody is totally immune. Well, bots are, but that's a separate issue.

 

[amirm]

What I found quite fascinating is how Paul generally answers with a non answer in what I would consider quite an obvious way, yet no one is challenging him.

That is the stunning part. Paul says "we have measured it and is in the spec sheet" and folks say, "see? he said they measured it." There is little in the spec sheet to back any claims of improved fidelity. Spec sheet just has a random output impedance and that is it. There is nothing in there to counter my measurements. How can they look at all that I have measured and look at that spec and say they are the same?

This irrationality is something people don't practice in their real life but in audio they choose to do so and fight for the right to do it!

 

[H-713]

This irrationality is something people don't practice in their real life but in audio they choose to do so and fight for the right to do it!

Have you been living under a rock for the last 24 months?

If you have, can you tell me how? It sounds pleasant.

 

[Angsty]

Their customers can hear the value, so no extra effort is required

Put differently, the value is only between the ears not in the physics.

 

[Angsty]

That is the stunning part. Paul says "we have measured it and is in the spec sheet" and folks say, "see? he said they measured it." There is little in the spec sheet to back any claims of improved fidelity. Spec sheet just has a random output impedance and that is it. There is nothing in there to counter my measurements. How can they look at all that I have measured and look at that spec and say they are the same?

This irrationality is something people don't practice in their real life but in audio they choose to do so and fight for the right to do it!

“A reliable way to make people believe in falsehoods is frequent repetition, because familiarity is not easily distinguished from truth. Authoritarian institutions and marketers have always known this fact.” -- Daniel Kahneman, Nobel Prize Winner in Economic Sciences

 

[MattHooper]

That PS Audio thread is playing out in the usual way. There are some EEs in there calmly, civilly giving reasons for their technical questions about the PS Audio unit, and this is being met as usual by a cohort of people flinging sh*t at them, ad hominem after ad hominem - "troll" "stop calling people liars" "stop pretending to be our dad!"

These are the people who actually drive what could be otherwise civil threads to sh*t while blaming it on those who dare to ask reasonable questions. The level of projection is fairly awe-inspiring.

 

[multisport4me]

On the other hand, why do any of you care if those that are presented empirical evidence that these devices don't do much for the money, continue to spend money on such products? Honestly, these types of arguments have been around well before Noel Lee made his first "Monster Cable" and will be around in perpetuity in the audiophile world. Why does someone spend $10,000 on a power cable? The fuck if I know. I do appreciate good testing to make me a better informed consumer but if someone has the money to throw at this overpriced stuff, why do any of you care? The review itself it warning enough. If they choose to close their eyes to it, so be it. Moving right along...