PS Audio PowerPlant P12 Amplifier Tests (Video)

[MattHooper]

Most people are f*cking idiots.

A choice bit:

I remember that comment sticking out as well.

Here's a recent article on Positive Feedback on "snake oil." Naturally, given the approach of that web site (never met a tweak they didn't like, it seems), it came across as yet more turf-protection from the golden ears (a staff member and designer of high end cables wrote the piece):

Snake Oil - Positive Feedback

Avoid the Snake Oil, Starting at $100/hour

positive-feedback.com

My criticism appears in the comments below the piece (nice they allowed it through).

I've been discussing my take on that article at another forum in which there are many owners of very expensive gear (not that there's anything wrong with that). I mentioned I blind tested between two servers I had - Apple Airport Express and a Raspberry Pi 3, both sending the same music files via S/PDIF to my Benchmark DAC 2L. I couldn't detect a difference and mentioned that was to be expected given how music servers work. Naturally I've come under fire for my naivete and I was asked by a Positive Feedback reviewer:

What's the total cost of the two servers you compared?

(As if that mattered, since it's the performance not the cost we are talking about, but it shows how some folks think about these things).

And I was told I had a lot to learn (I'm sure that's true), that "no serious audiophile would use those as servers" and that I ought to acquaint myself with the Taiko Extreme server, which I believe starts around $27,000!

I have nothing at all against such folks spending their money how they wish, and on what makes them happy. But this is also what Amirm is up against in terms of trends of thought that influence people in the high end audio world. The information he provides helps anyone who WANTS to make more informed choices, vs being left only with the claims from marketing and the dubiously confident claims from fellow audiophiles.

 

[brandall10]

PSAudio reviewing ASR reviewing PSAudio...

Just read the thread, wow it was like reading the arguments of the flat earth people, beyond salvation and common sense.

PSAnon?

"A tree fell in the woods and it didn’t make a sound because he couldn’t measure it."

 

[sam_adams]

I ought to acquaint myself with the Taiko Extreme server, which I believe starts around $27,000

That runs Windows . . .

 

[multisport4me]

I admit to buying one of their older units used on CAM. I only use it for my pre-pro, BD player, AppleTV and Tivo - my power amps are all on 20amp dedicated lines. I decided to keep it mostly as a power sequencer via the 12v triggers and ability to turn on/off groups of gear. This makes me want to finally dump it but then again I'd imagine the most "damage" it can do is to a power amp, correct?

 

[H-713]

Gee wiz, this horse is dead and buried and we're still beating it.

 

[JanesJr1]

However, there is something inherently conflict-producing in the very approach or mentality of those who hold their subjective perception as superior to any objective evidence. It does not allow for finding out you are wrong, or any real way of settling issues. It's just one's personal experience, it's true, and that's that.

I love this statement.

I spent a lifetime in business, and had a raft of personal weaknesses. However, I had one habit from childhood that I ended up building a career on. It was that I would always politely present the opposite view when it was merited, and I ALWAYS did so with the internal wish to LOSE the argument ... because losing the argument is the only way to learn something new. The course of debate was always pursued to knock down my objections so I could come closer to the alternative point of view... whether that actually happened or not.

This seems like tooting my own horn. If so, I have to admit that I have lost many arguments. The larger point is that some organzations are healthier, and encourage such behavior.

People being people, sometimes such dialectical challenges are taken personally. But I found that the best organizations encourage responsible conflict, as the fastest way to move ahead or find the truth. Such organizations also tend "air their laundry" in real time vs. letting unsaid aggressions build up. They also move people sooner to jobs that fit their capabilities either in the company or back on the job market. Finally, they often are better at being client-centric.

And perhaps if PS Audio was internally more self-challenging, they would be less likely to foist unproven tech on their clients, and be better at being,automatic trustees on behalf of their clients' interests, when those clients don't have EE degrees .

If they did, what kind of reviews would they get?

 

[Holmz]

I love this statement.

I spent a lifetime in business, and had a raft of personal weaknesses. However, I had one habit from childhood that I ended up building a career on. It was that I would always politely present the opposite view when it was merited, and I ALWAYS did so with the internal wish to LOSE the argument ... because losing the argument is the only way to learn something new. The course of debate was always pursued to knock down my objections so I could come closer to the alternative point of view... whether that actually happened or not.

This seems like tooting my own horn. If so, I have to admit that I have lost many arguments. The larger point is that some organzations are healthier, and encourage such behavior.

People being people, sometimes such dialectical challenges are taken personally. But I found that the best organizations encourage responsible conflict, as the fastest way to move ahead or find the truth. Such organizations also tend "air their laundry" in real time vs. letting unsaid aggressions build up. They also move people sooner to jobs that fit their capabilities either in the company or back on the job market. Finally, they often are better at being client-centric.

And perhaps if PS Audio was internally more self-challenging, they would be less likely to foist unproven tech on their clients, and be better at being, um, "fiduciaries" on behalf of their clients' interests, when those clients don't have EE degrees .

If they did, what kind of reviews would they get?

The conflict on the PS forum seemed a but beyond healthy and constructive.
The questioning of motive and subtle ad hominem attacks usually are a sign that things are going well.

 

[Kevinfc]

The fairest explanation I can give for the the subjectivist view is that there is an as of yet unmeasured variable to which human hearing is effected.

 

[Doodski]

The fairest explanation I can give for the the subjectivist view is that there is an as of yet unmeasured variable to which human hearing is effected.

What is this unmeasurable variable?

 

[danielbaen]

I still think that I wish there had been a page like this before where electronic devices were measured objectively, without brand promotions and without the intervention of subjective "ears". It has already saved me a lot of money personally and surely many of the followers as well.
Obviously there are always the "fanboys" of a brand who, despite seeing the irrefutable evidence of the disastrous measurements of the devices, deny it and continue admiring it simply because they have spent a lot of money.
Another thing is that the distortion oscilloscope measurements go completely unnoticed by the human ear and you like the sound of your audio set, that's another matter.

 

[H-713]

Am I the only one who's a little sick of the power cable and power conditioner arguments? It's the same result every time: No objective advantage under most circumstances (with maybe some possible niche exceptions). The same group of people is convinced they hear a difference (and I'm not going to say they don't), and the same group of people is 100% convinced that it's a scam.

I hate to throw a wet blanket on the "fun", but there's nothing new here, and I really doubt that anyone's mind is being changed. I suppose there are a few ignorant people left who might be vulnerable to wasting money, but the information is out there and not hard to find. If people don't feel like doing half an hour of research before they spend several grand, that's their own fault.

Just to throw out my own (worthless) opinion: Threads of this nature will not stop threads like the one on the PS Audio forum from happening. It's a cult-like following, no different from what occurs with flat-earthers, extreme supporters of both left/right political parties, moon-landing deniers, anti-vaxxers, etc. It's also not all that different from what happens with certain (but certainly not all) members of this forum. Arguing with them only makes the problem worse.

 

[amirm]

I hate to throw a wet blanket on the "fun", but there's nothing new here, and I really doubt that anyone's mind is being changed.

Take a look at the youtube comments. A lot people are having "aha" moments and reconsidering purchase of such products. Our membership here is self selected and for the most part stays away from such. Not the larger audience. Indeed I am quite encouraged by the usefulness of our testing.

 

[voodooless]

but the information is out there and not hard to find.

And why is that, do you think? Exactly because of information sources like these exposing the lies and diluted views.

Threads of this nature will not stop threads like the one on the PS Audio forum from happening. It's a cult-like following, no different from what occurs with flat-earthers, extreme supporters of both left/right political parties, moon-landing deniers, anti-vaxxers, etc.

Good! Let them expose themselves in that way!

It's also not all that different from what happens with certain (but certainly not all) members of this forum. Arguing with them only makes the problem worse.

Ignoring them makes it worse. We should challenge them on any and every fallacy. If it doesn’t sway the subject, it might sway many others that read it.

 

[MattHooper]

Am I the only one who's a little sick of the power cable and power conditioner arguments? It's the same result every time: No objective advantage under most circumstances (with maybe some possible niche exceptions). The same group of people is convinced they hear a difference (and I'm not going to say they don't), and the same group of people is 100% convinced that it's a scam.

People have been saying the same thing for as long as I can remember in high end audio "what, this debate again? Same thing, no one changes their mind."

But in fact, while certainly there are always people who will dig in their heels, some people do change their minds. And there are tons of people who just don't know either way, who can be educated. Plenty of lurkers who haven't any set in stone position. And there are new people getting in to the hobby all the time. The reddit forums for instance are just filled with new audiophiles asking questions. So long as information comes out, it's always valuable.

In fact, as someone who is not really a "techie" the exchanges on these issues through the years have been immensely valuable to me.

 

[Kevinfc]

What is this unmeasurable variable?

Unknown and undiscovered as of yet.

 

[voodooless]

Unknown and undiscovered as of yet.

Except by all those audiophile manufacturers? What do they know that we don’t? Must be a massive conspiracy then…

 

[Deleted member 23424]

Unknown and undiscovered as of yet.

Lochness Frequency Oscillation?

 

[D700]

@amirm maybe you didn’t use the right cable lifters when you measured it?

 

[xaviescacs]

All this reaction just means some important buttons have been pushed. That people believe in something, just like others believe in science, that's quite strong and not easy to change, give them time... and strong evidence!

 

[DonR]

Except by all those audiophile manufacturers? What do they know that we don’t? Must be a massive conspiracy then…

Expert veil-lifters.