PS Audio PowerPlant 12 Review (AC Regenerator)

[captainbeefheart]

I think we should mention pinpoint_oxford, who is apparently the generous fella who owns one of these and was generous enough to arrange shipping of this behemoth to Amir for testing and review. He’s been astonishingly graceful throughout the thrashing here.

Yes what that tells me is even though he purchased the P12 he is a level headed person not afraid of objective data. I would wager that a large percentage of people that own these wouldn't even want to know the truth, ignorance is bliss.

I am curious if he mentioned why he wanted it tested and what his experience with it was. Did he notice any sound changes? Did it remove any ground loops? What was the initial purchase motivation? I assume many purchase it because Paul and his henchmen tell you that you need this device to make all your other devices work as best as they can.

Thank you "pinpoint_oxford" for lending Amir your gear and allowing the light to be shown in this sometimes dark industry. Let the light show on all other snake oil dealers laughing all the way to the bank.

 

[srkbear]

Yes what that tells me is even though he purchased the P12 he is a level headed person not afraid of objective data. I would wager that a large percentage of people that own these wouldn't even want to know the truth, ignorance is bliss.

I am curious if he mentioned why he wanted it tested and what his experience with it was. Did he notice any sound changes? Did it remove any ground loops? What was the initial purchase motivation? I assume many purchase it because Paul and his henchmen tell you that you need this device to make all your other devices work as best as they can.

Thank you "pinpoint_oxford" for lending Amir your gear and allowing the light to be shown in this sometimes dark industry. Let the light show on all other snake oil dealers laughing all the way to the bank.

From what I’ve read from him in his few humble comments here, he did suggest that it did eliminate some noise issues for him. Refreshingly he made no claims of it “elevating his listening experience to new level” (PS Audio).

 

[RichB]

From what I’ve read from him in his few humble comments here, he did suggest that it did eliminate some noise issues for him. Refreshingly he made no claims of it “elevating his listening experience to new level” (PS Audio).

Well, it is not like PSAudio claimed:

• It improves micro and macro dynamics, audio purity, instrumental separation, soundstage width and depth
• lowers background noise for any connected equipment.
• will work magic on your system’s performance.
• removes power starvation that may risk damaging your equipment.
• provides greatly improved performance and safety from just plugging into the wall socket
• provides r better dynamics, bass and a much bigger, open soundstage than any power conditioner on the market.

Actually, they did

The P15 improves micro and macro dynamics, audio purity, instrumental separation, soundstage width and depth, and lowers background noise for any connected equipment. From medium to large power amplifiers to the smallest pieces of source equipment, the P15 will work magic on your system’s performance. Don’t starve your music or risk damaging your equipment. A P15 gives you greatly improved performance and safety from just plugging into the wall socket and far better dynamics, bass and a much bigger, open soundstage than any power conditioner on the market.

Please read this paragraph VERY carefully because all claims may be that it is better "than any power conditioner on the market".
There is an out...

- Rich

 

[srkbear]

Well, it is not like PSAudio claimed:

• It improves micro and macro dynamics, audio purity, instrumental separation, soundstage width and depth
• Lowers background noise for any connected equipment.
• will work magic on your system’s performance.
• Removes power starvation that may risk damaging your equipment.
• Provides greatly improved performance and safety from just plugging into the wall socket
• provides r better dynamics, bass and a much bigger, open soundstage than any power conditioner on the market.

Actually, they did



Please read this paragraph VERY carefully because all claims may be that it is better "than any power conditioner on the market".
There is an out...

- Rich

How depressing.

 

[RichB]

How depressing.

Even so, I rated the powerplant not terrible because it can provide regulated power for folks with power issues.
I suppose I have come to expect descriptions that range from fanciful language to total jive.

- Rich

 

[srkbear]

Well, it is not like PSAudio claimed:

• It improves micro and macro dynamics, audio purity, instrumental separation, soundstage width and depth
• Lowers background noise for any connected equipment.
• will work magic on your system’s performance.
• Removes power starvation that may risk damaging your equipment.
• Provides greatly improved performance and safety from just plugging into the wall socket
• provides r better dynamics, bass and a much bigger, open soundstage than any power conditioner on the market.

Actually, they did



Please read this paragraph VERY carefully because all claims may be that it is better "than any power conditioner on the market".
There is an out...

- Rich

WTF is “power starvation”? Amps eat? “Magic”? My amp isn’t “safe”?

The only appropriate statement is #2, since that’s what power conditioners are meant to be for—however Amir pretty much proved the claim false by shoving a live transformer against his amp and measuring no difference in background noise.

The only statement that could be considered true is #6, since power conditioners have no effect on dynamics, bass or soundstage—so they might as well claim that it’s best in class in this regard, since that cannot be disproved.

PS Audio already has a “reputation” for producing “high end” audio gear. I’d have so much more respect for them if they didn’t stoop to such cheesy marketing tactics.

 

[DonR]

WTF is “power starvation”? Amps eat? “Magic”? My amp isn’t “safe”?

Putting anything between the amp and the wall socket would likely introduce the opposite. That is usually why most amp manufacturers recommend against these sorts of devices.

 

[captainbeefheart]

Putting anything between the amp and the wall socket would likely introduce the opposite. That is usually why most amp manufacturers recommend against these sorts of devices.

Didn't Amir even prove using the "high current" outputs had a very high source impedance, 3 ohms or something along those lines. And it tested as one would think by current limiting the device plugged? Exactly why power amplifier manufacturers do not recommend using these items, they restrict current delivery more than anything else.


As I have said before these people at PSAudio really show how green they are in engineering. Let's even assume the P12 did output a "perfect sine wave" with vanishingly low distortion, what do they think the waveform will look like passing through rectifiers under load? Well being extremely nonlinear loads the rectifiers are just going create a ton of distortion and noise, rectification is some nasty business.

There is absolutely nothing inside an amplifier that will require the power transmission signal to be perfect, we already design our power supplies with the fact it's not perfect in mind. Anything sensitive inside a device we just go ahead and regulate the supply so it cannot fluctuate. I have never seen line power that was grossly distorted to the point where it de-rated the power transformer. I'd say the only two possible situations this device may help is with a ground loop where less expensive options would perform the same or better and if someone possibly had high levels of DC on their mains that will cause transformers and motors to saturate and run poorly. I am curious if the P12 even can deal with DC on the mains, it doesn't state anything about that.

The P12 is a big heavy expensive power strip that may actually hinder current delivery, I'm seeing very little advantages to this device vs it's advantages. It just gets on my nerves so much that these people actually tell you that your system NEEDS this junk to get the best from it. Half the time people think all these filters are in their devices to protect the device itself but in reality the filters are needed so the non-linear loads don't pollute the mains required by the FCC. Hence why I explained how rectification works and what it would do to a perfect sine wave, inside your amp is what causes the havoc, the FCC wants to keep that garbage out of the power grid.

 

[srkbear]

Didn't Amir even prove using the "high current" outputs had a very high source impedance, 3 ohms or something along those lines. And it tested as one would think by current limiting the device plugged? Exactly why power amplifier manufacturers do not recommend using these items, they restrict current delivery more than anything else.


As I have said before these people at PSAudio really show how green they are in engineering. Let's even assume the P12 did output a "perfect sine wave" with vanishingly low distortion, what do they think the waveform will look like passing through rectifiers under load? Well being extremely nonlinear loads the rectifiers are just going create a ton of distortion and noise, rectification is some nasty business.

There is absolutely nothing inside an amplifier that will require the power transmission signal to be perfect, we already design our power supplies with the fact it's not perfect in mind. Anything sensitive inside a device we just go ahead and regulate the supply so it cannot fluctuate. I have never seen line power that was grossly distorted to the point where it de-rated the power transformer. I'd say the only two possible situations this device may help is with a ground loop where less expensive options would perform the same or better and if someone possibly had high levels of DC on their mains that will cause transformers and motors to saturate and run poorly. I am curious if the P12 even can deal with DC on the mains, it doesn't state anything about that.

The P12 is a big heavy expensive power strip that may actually hinder current delivery, I'm seeing very little advantages to this device vs it's advantages. It just gets on my nerves so much that these people actually tell you that your system NEEDS this junk to get the best from it. Half the time people think all these filters are in their devices to protect the device itself but in reality the filters are needed so the non-linear loads don't pollute the mains required by the FCC.

Don’t most well-made amps with good power supplies have multiple APFs and voltage regulators to clean up the raw power coming from the wall anyway? Isn’t that why audio gear utilizes power supplies instead of transformers? And if there is some flaw in the amp’s design, shouldn’t it be detectable in Amir’s measurements?

I would think, given the significant number of homes that have aging electrical wiring and old circuit breaker boxes, that noise issues would be rampant. Since I’m not an electrical engineer, asking sincerely—what am I missing?

 

[Ricardus]

Subjectivity has its place in the world. Art for example.

Art and ice dancing.

 

[amirm]

And the whole purpose of audio equipment is to listen to music.

Getting pedantic again? The purpose of a car is to drive it. So you are going to tell me no one should measure its zero to 60 times? Or braking time? I suggest leaving behind high-school debate logic here.

 

[amirm]

You write "Measurements conclusively show that there is no sonic difference as far as fidelity." The first definition of sonic in the Merriam-Webster dictionary is "Of or relating to audible sound". Where did the audible come in?

It didn't and precisely that is the point. Measurements show even massive impairments on the AC input make no difference to the output of even a budget piece of audio equipment. I have also explained and shown from engineering point of view why this happens. Nothing is nothing. There is nothing to characterize.

If you think something other than what is coming out of your audio gear is responsible for you hearing things, then that is domain of supernatural and philosophy, not audio science and engineering.

 

[Ricardus]

If you think something other than what is coming out of your audio gear is responsible for you hearing things, then that is domain of supernatural and philosophy, not audio science and engineering.

My new favorite quotable quote!!

 

[srkbear]

If you think something other than what is coming out of your audio gear is responsible for you hearing things, then that is domain of supernatural and philosophy, not audio science and engineering.

Must not overlook psychosis, sir.

 

[pinpoint_oxford]

And I want to underscore my respect for your purchase. I enjoy these debates for many reasons, but ultimately we’re all here for a shared love of music—whatever monetary expense you chose to invest in your gear or what your justifications were, if you can afford it and it gives you joy, the data debated here shouldn’t change that. I appreciate you not being reactionary to this discussion.

I'm try to keep an open mind. I believe what I see and hear, but I also believe the science. To me, it's important to understand what I'm buying and why I am buying it. Life is too short to get mad on the internet. What's the point?

 

[pinpoint_oxford]

I am curious if he mentioned why he wanted it tested and what his experience with it was. Did he notice any sound changes? Did it remove any ground loops? What was the initial purchase motivation? I assume many purchase it because Paul and his henchmen tell you that you need this device to make all your other devices work as best as they can.

I guess you've figured it out that I was the one who sent in the P12 to be tested. There were some power issues I had causing some weird feedback/noise that the P12 did help eliminate (maybe an off-label use, I don't know). Somewhere in my post history on one of these threads is a recording of the noise with my amp cranked to 11. From a quality standpoint, I don't think it makes me hear things in my music that wasn't there before. Honestly I found the biggest thing that makes my system sound better is my mood. A good mood makes music sound better than any device could possibly do.

My initial motivation was to see if maybe power was the cause of my noise issues. My house (and wiring) are old. I was also interested to see if perhaps it could help. The audio dealer where I bought my amp had a puritian conditioner he was showing me. We didn't listen to it, but he did have some little device that, when plugged into the wall, would make the noise in the power "audible" via a little speaker and he showed me the wall vs the puritan, and the puritan made the device make no sound at all. I thought maybe there is something to power conditioning. I saw the PS audio and thought their approach of "regeneration" was worth looking into.

I think what PS Audio charges new for the P12 is too high a price for what the thing does. I understand it is a niche device so they have to make their money back somehow since there are some expensive parts in it. I found a really good deal on a secondhand unit that looks essentially new to me. They offered a 30 day trial and I though $60 for shipping back if I don't like it would be worth my while. I ended up liking it enough to keep it.

My motivation for having it tested was that I found this website when looking for something else and I noticed the P12 (or any regnerator) wasn't tested. I figured I could use that $60 in shipping to test it for the world. I didn't really care about the outcome since I was already happy with my purchase, but the results were interesting and this discussion has been well worth it to me!

 

[srkbear]

I'm try to keep an open mind. I believe what I see and hear, but I also believe the science. To me, it's important to understand what I'm buying and why I am buying it. Life is too short to get mad on the internet. What's the point?

Well I think it was very magnanimous of you to go through this effort and expense for the benefit of the site, especially since I assume you were aware of the potential for controversy. And given how PS Audio has historically been reviewed here, I’m sure you appreciated the likelihood of a discouraging result.

But the way you’ve responded to the backlash is an example of cool and collected decency, and because of your restraint I’m relieved that to my knowledge at least you have not exposed yourself to personal attacks. You’ve made it perfectly clear that this product resolved some noise issues for you—which is a claim aligned with what a power conditioner is designed to do—while avoiding any support for the disingenuous claims beyond this purpose made by PS Audio. I wish I had your temperament!

 

[Jimbob54]

I guess you've figured it out that I was the one who sent in the P12 to be tested. There were some power issues I had causing some weird feedback/noise that the P12 did help eliminate (maybe an off-label use, I don't know). Somewhere in my post history on one of these threads is a recording of the noise with my amp cranked to 11. From a quality standpoint, I don't think it makes me hear things in my music that wasn't there before. Honestly I found the biggest thing that makes my system sound better is my mood. A good mood makes music sound better than any device could possibly do.

My initial motivation was to see if maybe power was the cause of my noise issues. My house (and wiring) are old. I was also interested to see if perhaps it could help. The audio dealer where I bought my amp had a puritian conditioner he was showing me. We didn't listen to it, but he did have some little device that, when plugged into the wall, would make the noise in the power "audible" via a little speaker and he showed me the wall vs the puritan, and the puritan made the device make no sound at all. I thought maybe there is something to power conditioning. I saw the PS audio and thought their approach of "regeneration" was worth looking into.

I think what PS Audio charges new for the P12 is too high a price for what the thing does. I understand it is a niche device so they have to make their money back somehow since there are some expensive parts in it. I found a really good deal on a secondhand unit that looks essentially new to me. They offered a 30 day trial and I though $60 for shipping back if I don't like it would be worth my while. I ended up liking it enough to keep it.

My motivation for having it tested was that I found this website when looking for something else and I noticed the P12 (or any regnerator) wasn't tested. I figured I could use that $60 in shipping to test it for the world. I didn't really care about the outcome since I was already happy with my purchase, but the results were interesting and this discussion has been well worth it to me!

Bravo.

 

[Ricardus]

Must not overlook psychosis, sir.

And mind altering substances.

 

[pinpoint_oxford]

But the way you’ve responded to the backlash is an example of cool and collected decency, and because of your restraint I’m relieved that to my knowledge at least you have not exposed yourself to personal attacks.

Thank-you, maybe that is why I've found this thread so civil. Following these threads has been a lot of fun. There are some really smart people that participate here (shout out to @solderdude) who have helped me learn a lot about electronics. In fact, thanks to this thread, I learned that my P12 has a feature I didn't know existed in the inrush limiter of the HC outlets.