PS Audio P12 Review Part 2: Power Testing

[Doodski]

Chow uses unregulated supplies?
Is there a list by manufacture?

I don't understand the questions. I just woke up and maybe I am missing something.

 

[Holmz]

I don't understand the questions. I just woke up and maybe I am missing something.

Who
(Chow is a hungry spell checker.)

As in… Who uses unregulated power supplies?

 

[Doodski]

Who
(Chow is a hungry spell checker.)

As in… Who uses unregulated power supplies?

Most of the amps and receivers today use linear unregulated power supplies. The pulse width modulation (PWM) or switch mode power supplies (SMPS) are becoming very common but I think the unregulated supply still rules the day and has advantages over the switch mode power supply in some applications.

Does that answer your question?

 

[MakeMineVinyl]

This was one of the things I wanted my P12 for. Where I live in North America my voltage as gone between 109-129V. It hasn't killed anything outright, but no doubt it stresses some components.

That range is not all that abnormal, and is unlikely to stress any components in your system, or the components inside them.

 

[pinpoint_oxford]

It's got to hurt knowing that you could have protected your electronics (surge + AVR) for about $65 with an APC AVR versus the $5,000 price of a fancy toy like the PS Audio P12 that is loaded with features you don't need.

It doesn't hurt. I know what I bought and I know that it was expensive for what it is., but those other features are things I wanted as well.

 

[Doodski]

This was one of the things I wanted my P12 for. Where I live in North America my voltage as gone between 109-129V. It hasn't killed anything outright, but no doubt it stresses some components.

I monitored the AC mains voltage at a test/calibration workbench that I owned/operated for some years. The building was in a commercial/industrial area and had some voltage swings of ~105VAC-130VAC. Everything worked OK and the calibration gear calibrated gear OK. As I mentioned to you before a regen type AC mains unit can be used to maintain a steady AC power supply for a high accuracy metrology lab for measuring and certifying calibration down to parts per million but for home use and a test bench a regen is not required because the power supplies can manage the voltage swings OK. The upper 130VAC is within range of the electricity power supply company terms of service as is the 105VAC. The only thing that the electricity power supply companies guarantee is that the 60Hz is dead on. To balance and maintain a accurate 120VAC at all service points is impossible to manage without incurring very high expenses for the electrical distribution circuits. It's just not practical. You may relax as your gear is going to be OK if the AC mains goes to 130VAC.

 

[MasterApex]

Conclusions (updated)
When using the P12 as one would think to do: using Zone D "high current" outlets, impedance is actually worse than mains AC and hence it reduces power output in our test amplifier. When testing using low current Zone A, this doesn't happen and we get the same power, distortion and noise.

Bottom line is that at worst, PS Audio P12 objectively degrades the performance of some audio products if you use the Zone D outlet. If you use the other zones, it simply doesn't do anything useful than waste some power, take up space, and cost you a lot of money. Distortion, noise, dynamic and average power of all tested products remains the same as not using P12. This is what the data shows and after two weeks of waiting, nothing has been presented from PS Audio or anyone else for that matter, to indicate otherwise.

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As always, questions, comments, recommendations, etc. are welcome.

Any donations are much appreciated using: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/how-to-support-audio-science-review.8150/

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I am new and learning a lot from this thread.
Is it correct to extend the conclusion that direct AC outlet is better than adding any "active power conditioning" or even "basic surge protector power strip" in the between the amp and AC outlet ?

I have Mark Levinson 333 directly connected to AC outlet with dedicated 20A breaker because the manual says it can double down to 1200W at 2ohm load and the power supply can sustain the 2ohm load and will draw 45.2A from the 120V outlet.

I have been curious about adding power conditioning (such as the panamax 5102) or basic surge protection (such as https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07GFRKSXD/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1a)

 

[Doodski]

I have been curious about adding power conditioning (such as the panamax 5102) or basic surge protection (such as https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07GFRKSXD/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1a)

The Amazon Basics 8-Outlet Power Strip Surge Protector has a circuit breaker rated at 15 amps. Not big for your gear.

 

[CinDyment]

I monitored the AC mains voltage at a test/calibration workbench that I owned/operated for some years. The building was in a commercial/industrial area and had some voltage swings of ~105VAC-130VAC. Everything worked OK and the calibration gear calibrated gear OK. As I mentioned to you before a regen type AC mains unit can be used to maintain a steady AC power supply for a high accuracy metrology lab for measuring and certifying calibration down to parts per million but for home use and a test bench a regen is not required because the power supplies can manage the voltage swings OK. The upper 130VAC is within range of the electricity power supply company terms of service as is the 105VAC. The only thing that the electricity power supply companies guarantee is that the 60Hz is dead on. To balance and maintain a accurate 120VAC at all service points is impossible to manage without incurring very high expenses for the electrical distribution circuits. It's just not practical. You may relax as your gear is going to be OK if the AC mains goes to 130VAC.

105 is a technical brown out and should never be more than short duration. If you hit that regularly your power company will address the issue. 108-132 (+/- 10%) is what any "real" company tests their equipment at for at spec operation. Long term at 108 may incur life reduction due to additional heat. Standard test sweeps would do brownout testing.

 

[MattHooper]

On the PS Audio forum Paul McGowan is being asked about Amirm's measurements indicating the P12 does not fully regenerate the power. His reply:

---------------

"No, the P12 and all modern Power Plants are not traditional regenerators (which are 50% efficient). They regenerate and regulate the hot side of the AC line with a tracking power supply in an effort to improve efficiency (which is now about 85%).


Their purpose is to lower impedance, regulate the AC, regenerate a new low distortion sine wave, and (with MultiWave) extend the peak charging time of the waveform—and they perform these functions beautifully.


I think we’ve been pretty clear about all this since the inception of the Power Plants (their patented circuitry is readily available through Google patents)."

---------------

Thoughts?

 

[Shazb0t]

On the PS Audio forum Paul McGowan is being asked about Amirm's measurements indicating the P12 does not fully regenerate the power. His reply:

---------------

"No, the P12 and all modern Power Plants are not traditional regenerators (which are 50% efficient). They regenerate and regulate the hot side of the AC line with a tracking power supply in an effort to improve efficiency (which is now about 85%).


Their purpose is to lower impedance, regulate the AC, regenerate a new low distortion sine wave, and (with MultiWave) extend the peak charging time of the waveform—and they perform these functions beautifully.


I think we’ve been pretty clear about all this since the inception of the Power Plants (their patented circuitry is readily available through Google patents)."

---------------

Thoughts?

It appears the device is even more pointless than originally thought. It's not even actually doing full AC>DC>AC regeneration. So much for lower noise. We've seen enough evidence here to know that AC regeneration of any percentage isn't needed for modern audio devices, but if you're going to spend this kind of money on a device that purportedly does it, I'd be disappointed if I found out this reality.

The fact that Paul admits this method of operation and continues to use the verbiage regarding completely "new", lower noise, and perfectly regenerated sinewaves tells you how he regards truth vs marketing.

On a side note, participating in the discussion on the PS Audio forums is incredibly toxic. The regulars there are all about ad hominem and gatekeeping tactics while constantly trying to derail discussion away from the actual subject. They are completely within their own bubble praising the cult of Paul McGowan and PS Audio, regardless of any information or data shared there.

 

[MattHooper]

It appears the device is even more pointless than originally thought. It's not even actually doing full AC>DC>AC regeneration. So much for lower noise. We've seen enough evidence here to know that AC regeneration of any percentage isn't needed for modern audio devices, but if you're going to spend this kind of money on a device that purportedly does it, I'd be disappointed if I found out this reality.

The fact that Paul admits this method of operation and continues to use the verbiage regarding completely "new", lower noise, and perfectly regenerated sinewaves tells you how he regards truth vs marketing.

On a side note, participating in the discussion on the PS Audio forums is incredibly toxic. The regulars there are all about ad hominem and gatekeeping tactics while constantly trying to derail discussion away from the actual subject. They are completely within their own bubble praising the cult of Paul McGowan and PS Audio, regardless of any information or data shared there.

Yes I've seen your interactions there, as well as some other poor PS Audio owner just trying to ask questions and being shut down with "why don't you just go enjoy listening to the music instead?" type deflections.

The problem is, if you don't have facts or objective evidence on your side all you have left are character attacks. That's why the ad hominem is inevitable on "subjective" oriented forums...and they of course blame it on the people asking the technical questions, and project that it is the 'other guy' acting like the dogmatist.

 

[SuicideSquid]

I am new and learning a lot from this thread.
Is it correct to extend the conclusion that direct AC outlet is better than adding any "active power conditioning" or even "basic surge protector power strip" in the between the amp and AC outlet ?

I have Mark Levinson 333 directly connected to AC outlet with dedicated 20A breaker because the manual says it can double down to 1200W at 2ohm load and the power supply can sustain the 2ohm load and will draw 27.5A from the 120V outlet.

I have been curious about adding power conditioning (such as the panamax 5102) or basic surge protection (such as https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07GFRKSXD/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1a)

Depends what you mean by "better". Can adding additional devices in between your wall outlet and your amplifier (slightly) reduce the amount of raw power available to your amplifier? Yes. Are you ever going to notice? Almost certainly not.

Surge protection is always a good idea, and the likelihood that a properly-designed surge protector (or even battery backup system) is going to meaningfully affect the power your amplifier receives is virtually zero, and that it will audibly affect your gear is actually zero. In the vast majority of circumstances, power conditioning is unnecessary, and claims that it'll make your gear "sound better" are categorically false.

 

[Doodski]

105 is a technical brown out and should never be more than short duration. If you hit that regularly your power company will address the issue. 108-132 (+/- 10%) is what any "real" company tests their equipment at for at spec operation. Long term at 108 may incur life reduction due to additional heat. Standard test sweeps would do brownout testing.

Hmmz.. I never knew that. Next time I see 105 I'll be complaining.

 

[solderdude]

Thoughts?

"No, the P12 and all modern Power Plants are not traditional regenerators (which are 50% efficient). They regenerate and regulate the hot side of the AC line with a tracking power supply in an effort to improve efficiency (which is now about 85%).

Now he is finally telling the truth. Even his YT rebutal on 'how to measure a PP' he still stated mains was converted to DC and regenerated.
As Paul describes it now is exactly what I described it does earlier.

Their purpose is to lower impedance, regulate the AC, regenerate a new low distortion sine wave, and (with MultiWave) extend the peak charging time of the waveform—and they perform these functions beautifully.

Yes, this is correct. Multiwave is flattening the top of the sinewave which mains already is but arguably with different harmonics.

I think we’ve been pretty clear about all this since the inception of the Power Plants (their patented circuitry is readily available through Google patents)."

he hasn't been clear about this on his website nor in the forums at all.
He also conveniently still avoids the High Current output group and its output resistance due to the (poorly implemented) inrush current limiter which is there to protect the internal amplifier.

 

[Doodski]

and (with MultiWave) extend the peak charging time of the waveform

If this smoothing of the peaks/multiwave extends the life of components and reduces heat how does this occur? I thought the steeper part of the slope of the AC waveform would be the fastest/most rapid rate of change and that would shorten life expectancy.

 

[nikosidis]

You do not need to be a scientist to understand that Pauls response to Amir made no sense.
It was full of errors.
I then challenge the believers to try to understand how on earth this company could design something like this that would make a difference?
It is obvious they do not have the knowledge or equipment to design proper audio products.

 

[Doodski]

You do not need to be a scientist to understand that Pauls response to Amir made no sense.
It was full of errors.
I then challenge the believers to try to understand how on earth this company could design something like this that would make a difference?
It is obvious they do not have the knowledge or equipment to design proper audio products.

Dangit every time I see that fish you have I get hOngry... I've caught and eaten thousands of little trout and they are sooo tasty... and they can't be bought in stores here. I don't live in a trout fishing area atm... and I can't be bothered going fishing for the naturally occurring mercury poisoned fish in the local waters. The local mountain water runoff has naturally occurring high mercury content and poisons the fish.

 

[nikosidis]

Dangit every time I see that fish you have I get hOngry... I've caught and eaten thousands of little trout and they are sooo tasty... and they can't be bought in stores here. I don't live a in a trout fishing area atm... and I can't be bothered going fishing for the naturally occurring mercury poisoned fish in the local waters. The local mountain water runoff has naturally occurring high mercury content and poisons the fish.

Haha
It is the same here. You can not buy them in the stores. Have to fish them and yes, they are dammed tasty

 

[levimax]

For $5,000+ it would be kind of cool if it had an electric motor spinning an alternator to create "fresh" AC .... it still wouldn't change the sound of any downstream component but at least it would live up to being called a "regenerator".