Midwest Blade
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$5,499 list price at PS Audio website is the only measurement needed on this one.
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PS Audio P12 Review Part 2: Power Testing
- Thread starter amirm
- Start date
Prana Ferox
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These generally have a built in transfer switch and very little of the UPS is in circuit in general use. They are not double-conversion /regeneration units like the PS Audio device in the OP, so in normal operation it's just like plugging into a power strip. If there's a power loss upstream you can generally hear that switch shifting inside the box. It's a break before make - anything like a PC is generally specced to accept up to a 16ms outage while the switch flips, although if you have a light plugged in you may see a flicker.
I have no idea about any audible effects, presumably none if you're not on battery, although a big AVR and 3 200w amps + miscellany might be pushing the limits for capacity on that unit (and the upstream plug and circuit) and you may want to split them up.
If Florida had used this device to filter the power going to it's electric chair, Ted Bundy would be alive today.
maybe get them into $100 notes and use as some decoupling stands to speaker? could be quite a tilt adjusting option also
Shouldn't that read ”pushing” instead of “pulling“?.
Well respected ? Look at their bizzare DAC’s ? There always been a Touch of voodo in the brand .
@amirm wow !!! Thanks for the update.... a 3.0 ohm output impedance of the P12 is surprisingly high especially after reading the manufacturer's claims !!! Are you absolutely certain of the accuracy of that meter ? Did you test all the P12 outlets ? I say this because The P12 that was sent to me originally was broken right from the factory---the high current outlet had 0 voltage and 0 current !!!! (Bad quality control at PS Audio !!!! ).I recently reviewed the PS Audio PowerPlant P12 AC power regenerator. There, I measured its performance with either no load or typical source device. Questions were raised as to its performance with higher power loads. Here is that test.
View attachment 190503
So I unpacked and lugged the 50 pound P12 back to my lab, and paired it with an Outlaw 2220 monoblock. This is a linear amplifier and doesn't have a regulator power supply meaning it can produce more power if allowed.
To give the P12 full benefit of doubt, I used a Pangea AC 14SE MKII Signature Power Cable (2 meter) to feed it AC. It costs US $120.
PS Audio claims or implies that you get more dynamics and power due to P12 having lower impedance. We will test this.
PS Audio P12 Measurements
Let's test the power capability first and foremost by measuring maximum and peak power of the Outlaw 2220 power amplifier using my standard "Raw AC" wall power:
View attachment 190504
These are my standard measurements but in case you are not familiar with them, on the left is more or less continuous power if we allow the amplifier to reach 1% THD+N. I say more or less as the test lasts about a second or two in each try.
On the right the duration of the signal is much lower. As explained, we have a sine wave that stays at low level (and hence power) for 480 cycles but then peaks to full value for just 20 cycles. This standard was created for car audio manufacturers that want to throw out big numbers for watts. As we see, the outlaw does produce a lot more power, reaching more than half a killowatt. This is far more than the base measurement because the power supply capacitors can maintain that duty cycle well enough to generate that much power.
Now let's route the 2220 amp through PS audio:
View attachment 190505
As you see, we lost 7.5% power in both continuous and burst power. As should be the case as the PS Audio P12 is introducing losses in the AC line.
As another test, I have an Ideal AC line tester, the 61-164. This is a $400 instrument for quick and useful powerline measurements. One of its unique features is ability to measure the impedance of each of the three lines in your AC mains. Let's focus on the Hot wire and see how my standard power strip that I use for powering everything ("Raw AC") performs:
View attachment 190506
Impedance is just 0.26 ohm. When we remodeled our home I made sure every circuit is powered using 12 gauge as opposed to 14. And my power strip is a beefy one as well. I am also not hugely far from our breaker panel.
Now let's power the PS Audio P12 using the Pangea power cord and measure the impedance of its high current outlets I used for previous testing:
View attachment 190507
As you see, impedance has jumped to 3 ohm or more than 10 times higher! I should note that I don't know how accurate this measurement is but given the wide differential, we can likely rely on the fact that PS Audio P12 *system* does have higher impedance. I wrote "system" there because P12 introduces yet another AC cord and outlet so naturally those contribute to degrading its impedance. In other words, we are measuring the whole thing, not just some internal impedance.
Conclusions
It is clear from the above tests that using the P12 degrades available power to an amplifier, not increase it. Both continues and dynamic power are limited, as they should. You are inserting another cable and box (power regenerator) which has its own losses. Burst capability in power amps is provided by its internal power supply capacitors that have a very low impedance path to the amp being inside it. Trying to do that with AC is like pulling the end of a wet noodle and expecting the other side to move with it.
The data here is the reason a number of power amp manufacturers recommend to power their units directly from the wall and not through a AC regenerator. You want the least impedance path to the AC outlet and that is a simple power cord.
While with low current devices we could hardly find a harm caused by the PS Audio P12 (other than to your bank account), with power amps we are seeing a distinct degradation of power. In this regard, I think any marketing material without proper objective back up to the contrary is irresponsible here. Please heed the advice from me and many amp designers that you don't want to use these regenerators for power amplifiers.
-----------
As always, questions, comments, recommendations, etc. are welcome.
Any donations are much appreciated using: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/how-to-support-audio-science-review.8150/
Please educate me: am I comparing apples to apples here ? Is output impedance of the power regenerator the same thing as the impedance that you are measuring from its outlets ?
The specs on the PS Audio web site say that the output impedance should be <0.008 ohm https://www.psaudio.com/products/perfectwave-powerplant-12/#section-904-824
If the impedance is 3 ohms, and I certainly do not doubt your measurements, then that alone is a reason for you to SCREAM to the audio world about a flawed product with totally incorrect (and that's a euphemism) manufacturer posted specs
The big brother to the P12 with 3600 watts (P20) is, according to manufacturer posted specs, supposed to have <0.005 ohm
PowerPlant 20 – PS Audio
www.psaudio.com
Thank you again for all the work you're doing and helping out your members !!!
OP
- Thread Starter
- #48
The outlaw is a single channel amp so we are within spec.
Rock Rabbit
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3 ohms or over 3 ohms (>3 ohms)?
It would have been very interesting to see and measure the AC wave form during these tests and also the THD on the AC ?
Why . the current draw from an unregulated power supply is not always "nice" this current then modulates the voltage in proportion to the impedance of the AC network (I*Z) ? so if this voltage in turn is also used for other components I can clearly see cases where this can be not so good .
If one really wants to invest k$ in power conditioning i can think of no better action than a thicker powerline to the house and then dedicated thicker wring from the fuse box directly to the hifi room low impedance is the objective . Not that I really think its necessary at all , but if where to build these kind of massive 16ch HT rooms i would do that
Why . the current draw from an unregulated power supply is not always "nice" this current then modulates the voltage in proportion to the impedance of the AC network (I*Z) ? so if this voltage in turn is also used for other components I can clearly see cases where this can be not so good .
If one really wants to invest k$ in power conditioning i can think of no better action than a thicker powerline to the house and then dedicated thicker wring from the fuse box directly to the hifi room low impedance is the objective . Not that I really think its necessary at all , but if where to build these kind of massive 16ch HT rooms i would do that
OP
- Thread Starter
- #51
All the tests I posted are dynamic so there is no static picture to capture.
dasdoing
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Keep in mind that the $5500 P12 is PS Audio’s second least expensive power conditioner. The P15 is $7500 (although on sale now for $4999) and the P20 is $9999.
@amirm The AC cord and the outlet can't have more than a fraction of an ohm (you measured the outlet already) so does your 3 ohm measurement of the system at the outlet of the P12 mean that the output impedance of the P12 is like 2.7 or 2.8 ohms ? If so, that's HUGE !!!! Are you sure of this ? Or do I not understand ? Please explain.I recently reviewed the PS Audio PowerPlant P12 AC power regenerator. There, I measured its performance with either no load or typical source device. Questions were raised as to its performance with higher power loads. Here is that test.
View attachment 190503
So I unpacked and lugged the 50 pound P12 back to my lab
To give the P12 full benefit of doubt, I used a Pangea AC 14SE MKII Signature Power Cable (2 meter) to feed it AC. It costs US $120.
PS Audio claims or implies that you get more dynamics and power due to P12 having lower impedance. We will test this.
PS Audio P12 Measurements
Let's test the power capability first and foremost by measuring maximum and peak power of the Outlaw 2220 power amplifier using my standard "Raw AC" wall power:
View attachment 190504
These are my standard measurements but in case you are not familiar with them, on the left is more or less continuous power if we allow the amplifier to reach 1% THD+N. I say more or less as the test lasts about a second or two in each try.
On the right the duration of the signal is much lower. As explained, we have a sine wave that stays at low level (and hence power) for 480 cycles but then peaks to full value for just 20 cycles. This standard was created for car audio manufacturers that want to throw out big numbers for watts. As we see, the outlaw does produce a lot more power, reaching more than half a killowatt. This is far more than the base measurement because the power supply capacitors can maintain that duty cycle well enough to generate that much power.
Now let's route the 2220 amp through PS audio:
View attachment 190505
As you see, we lost 7.5% power in both continuous and burst power. As should be the case as the PS Audio P12 is introducing losses in the AC line.
As another test, I have an Ideal AC line tester, the 61-164. This is a $400 instrument for quick and useful powerline measurements. One of its unique features is ability to measure the impedance of each of the three lines in your AC mains. Let's focus on the Hot wire and see how my standard power strip that I use for powering everything ("Raw AC") performs:
View attachment 190506
Impedance is just 0.26 ohm. When we remodeled our home I made sure every circuit is powered using 12 gauge as opposed to 14. And my power strip is a beefy one as well. I am also not hugely far from our breaker panel.
Now let's power the PS Audio P12 using the Pangea power cord and measure the impedance of its high current outlets I used for previous testing:
View attachment 190507
As you see, impedance has jumped to 3 ohm or more than 10 times higher! I should note that I don't know how accurate this measurement is but given the wide differential, we can likely rely on the fact that PS Audio P12 *system* does have higher impedance. I wrote "system" there because P12 introduces yet another AC cord and outlet so naturally those contribute to degrading its impedance. In other words, we are measuring the whole thing, not just some internal impedance.
Conclusions
It is clear from the above tests that using the P12 degrades available power to an amplifier, not increase it. Both continues and dynamic power are limited, as they should. You are inserting another cable and box (power regenerator) which has its own losses. Burst capability in power amps is provided by its internal power supply capacitors that have a very low impedance path to the amp being inside it. Trying to do that with AC is like pulling the end of a wet noodle and expecting the other side to move with it.
The data here is the reason a number of power amp manufacturers recommend to power their units directly from the wall and not through a AC regenerator. You want the least impedance path to the AC outlet and that is a simple power cord.
While with low current devices we could hardly find a harm caused by the PS Audio P12 (other than to your bank account), with power amps we are seeing a distinct degradation of power. In this regard, I think any marketing material without proper objective back up to the contrary is irresponsible here. Please heed the advice from me and many amp designers that you don't want to use these regenerators for power amplifiers.
-----------
As always, questions, comments, recommendations, etc. are welcome.
Any donations are much appreciated using: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/how-to-support-audio-science-review.8150/
sam_adams
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@Mnyb Aside from the fact that the P12 is clearly useless in terms of "improving sound", someone here should tell the manufacturer that the ASR measured its output impedance and it is like 300 times higher than what they're posting on the manufacturer's web site !!!! 3 ohms vs .008 ohms !!!! OMG !!!!
Go right ahead. I predict Paul's reaction will be, "Weeeeeeeeellll..." in that "aw shucks" tone he adopts when he hucksters.
@SIY I just did: here's my email:
Dear PS Audio ([email protected]):
Amir on www.audiosciencereview.com just reviewed the P12 and measured the output impedance of the P12 and it’s 3 ohms. He put out a youtube video too. The specs on the PS Audio web site say output impedance of the P12 is 0.008 ohms.
Please explain.
Thank you in advance.
Best Regards,
DualTriode
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Some random thoughts about the power supply in the wall back to the main electrical panel and if logic dictates the IR drop all the way back to the utility transformer down the street.
If you are in the US a circuit provides power for up to 500 square feet plus wall outlets.
For the nominal 15 Amp circuit the NEC (NFPA 101) allows no more than 12 amps at 3% voltage drop. If you do the calculation, E = IR, that is a max of 0.4 Ohms between the circuit breaker and the wall outlet.
A related thought; that 15 amp breaker is a thermally activated device in series with the the 14 or 12 AWG supply conductors. For fun on a dark night go out, open the main power panel at your hose and look at the breakers with a infrared camera.
On more logical leap; if you plug a switching power supply into a wall outlet, 120 Volts or 240 Volts it does not much know or care about the impedance or voltage of the mains supplied power, the output is the same. (with in the limits of the data sheet)
Thanks DT
If you are in the US a circuit provides power for up to 500 square feet plus wall outlets.
For the nominal 15 Amp circuit the NEC (NFPA 101) allows no more than 12 amps at 3% voltage drop. If you do the calculation, E = IR, that is a max of 0.4 Ohms between the circuit breaker and the wall outlet.
A related thought; that 15 amp breaker is a thermally activated device in series with the the 14 or 12 AWG supply conductors. For fun on a dark night go out, open the main power panel at your hose and look at the breakers with a infrared camera.
On more logical leap; if you plug a switching power supply into a wall outlet, 120 Volts or 240 Volts it does not much know or care about the impedance or voltage of the mains supplied power, the output is the same. (with in the limits of the data sheet)
Thanks DT
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