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PS Audio Noise Harvester AC Cleaner Review

solderdude

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Back to the PS thing, why do manufacturers (and users) care about the quality of AC at all, at the very last mile, if we have as part of a linear PSU the transformer itself, then all the basic AC filtering circuits (mentioned before by someone), then after rectification the big buffer caps.., making nearly all of our devices baby-proof ? Especially when I think about modern, 'audio-grade', superb quality, well designed switching supplies (which don't induce that much noise nowadays than simpler designs in the old times).. e.g. looking at an ICE, Hypex module, would the quality of the sound be affected by an extra filtering device like the PS Harvester at all ? I don't think so. I would scratch my head more thinking about smps vs linear in terms of peak reserve (current) and power factor, but I'd never come to the idea of a simple extra filter which doesn't make the top of the sine wave text-book perfect anyway. (Not sure if I'd need textbook-perfect sine wave in front of an SMPS but that's a different topic, the waveform provided by the utility itself is just okay I think). :rolleyes:

In the case of linear power supplies that are underdimensioned one can expect DC ripples (double the mains frequency) leaking through rugulators or power output stages near max output power.

This one can design for and is easily tested even with simple test gear. The bigger issue is designing for no influence of common mode and leakage currents making it into the audio path (Superdud's pet pieve). This isn't as easy and straightforward and requires insight in the path these possible currents will take. One can design for this but serious question if all 'audio designers' have enough knowledge on this part. Even more so users incorrectly using devices (without them knowing).

These common mode and leakage currents can differ substantially between power supplies, loacal circumstances (differing from those in the design stage) etc. So changing power supplies may well be beneficial. Common mode filtering and proper grounding or isolating as well.

Some designs with a poor PSRR (Power supply rejection ratio) may well be more 'quiet' at its output when substantial peaks are present on the mains. These are rare and isolated incidents and some counter measures may help.
The PS audio thingy does nothing about common mode and leakage so could, maybe, in some rare conditions help reduce audible nasties.


Anyway I like the channel of PSA and like 'Uncle Paul' himself, a great veteran with a great life full of experiences but I'm not sure if I would really benefit from such a device. Looking at these measurements of Amir I'd say as long we're talking about pure facts, each of us would fail the ABX blind tests. But when we talk about psychoacustics and the placebo factor, it might contribute to my listening experience just by knowing I've done something good for my gear, because my brain is part of the equation at this point and is cheating me. However, talking on this level, this little device does nothing more - or even less - than a glass of beer or just listening right after a good sex, with relaxed brain and maybe a little smile on my face.

Paul seems like a nice guy. He actually also explains things well.. right up to the point where he says... weeelllllll. From that point switch of the video. Most what comes out of his mouth is nonsense to please the subjective minded folks so they buy PS audio stuff. In the end it is his advertising channel disguised as 'honest advice' channel.
 

Vortex

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right up to the point where he says... weeelllllll
This made me laugh up, so right.. :D

Nevertheless I don't say I don't like what they do, they have some interesting concepts (some more useful and some less useful) like tube input stage, mosfet output stage (BHK) or the idea of converting everything regardless of format into DSD and then decoding that.. Couple of months ago as a naive listener I was aiming on some PSA devices and the Matrix X-Sabre Pro DAC back then too.

Then I somehow got to this great site, saw the measurements later and then came the "WTF". For the electronics-uneducated listeners, it's really a lottery game, the Matrix is a stellar DAC whereas many great manufacturers (not only PSA) produce results where I really say WTF, no better words for that. And this is all ok on normal room listening levels but when somebody builds a really high-power big system it's advisable to choose low-noise DACs, amps and everything in-between else they can be like one of my friends with his 1kW PA system, living with a quite noticable amount of "pfffffffffffffff" when it's on, despite XLR between source and the active speakers (source is a HifiBerry DAC+ Pro XLR on a Pi, no magic hat in-between).

So I really thank Amir for the existence of this forum and the huge work he puts into all these.. like pulling away the curtains and shedding light onto the devices. For the money we spend on an expensive gear I CAN accept some voodoo (or better said, I can ignore it), but physics and measurements should always come first. At the end of the day, these contribute the most (99% if not 100) to a certain performance level, not snake oil. (I'm still aiming for a good DAC from the list, if not the Matrix then something else just below it, but turned my head towards Hypex now, Bruno Putzeys and his work so far at different companies and different areas of audio is simply jaw-dropping for me. A big talent in the industry).
 

Timbo2

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I have one of those but left it in our old house! Wanted to see the voltage all the time so it was good for that.

You need to be able to tell when your audio gear is pulling 9kW.

IMG_20190527_091822.jpg


(Cheap Amazon voltage and current meter in a homemade housing for my EV charging outlet...)
 

anmpr1

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...they have some interesting concepts... like tube input stage, mosfet output stage (BHK).

Historically I don't think PS/BHK was close. Julius Futterman was working it out in the early '80s when he left the planet. Harvey Rosenberg, and George Kay actually sold a product in the mid '80s.

A company called Counterpoint also marketed a line of tube/MOSFET hybrids at that time--maybe a little later. Reliability was said to be an issue. FWIW, I understand that certain FETs are unobtanium for these and other period hybrid amplifiers.

Below are two links. A word of warning: Rosenberg was a part-time lunatic, but George Kay's site has some brief information. Not sure if he is still in business.

http://www.meta-gizmo.org/Tri/nyal/moscode.html

https://www.moscode.com/news.htm

m600_trans_517.jpg
 

Laederofmen

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From what I've read of the regs, UK mains has a maximum impedance of 0.25 ohms, so a 10 amp load will drop the mains by no more than 2.5volts.

My house built in the 1970s has a 'company' fuse at 50 amps so electric showers are pretty much out, and we have to be cognisant of how much we switch on together. Our cottage in France had a 30 amp fuse so it really was a case of turning the electric fire off when boiling the kettle. We tripped the main breaker several times when we first got there. Fortunately it was a breaker we could reset, unlike our UK house which has a proper fuse. If we blow that, we'll have to wait days for somebody to come out and replace it. I've asked for the fuse to be upgraded but the street wiring won't take more! How's that for stinginess?

Even small flats these days seem to have more capacity than our house, but then in the 1970s, each room only had a couple of sockets. Just our kitchen now has 20 sockets.

S
Easy fix: replace the 30a circuits fuse with one rated for 50a and run as many high consumption items as you like! Bonus, when it's cold the wire that's glowing red in your walls will keep you warm! To be clear, this is a bad joke.
 

CDMC

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I hadn't been to PS Audio's site for a while (not since they decided to cut all their dealers out, since the dealers were selling products for nearly 50% off and PS Audio decided they were better off just going direct so they could raise pricing and keep all the profits for themselves). Just for fun, I fixed their noise harvester blurb so it reads truthfully:

Eliminate stereo problems right at the source, your wallet. We understand that not everyone has $10,000 for our DirectStream Power Plant 20 or $4,400 for Paul's Reference Dragon AC Power Cable, and we don't want you to feel left out. Our Money Harvester is an entry level snake oil device that will get you started down the road of spending large amounts of money on products that do nothing but enrich our company. Purchase one and plug it into any AC outlet and you will instantly feel it harmlessly removing money from your pocket and putting it in Paul's. Similar plug-in money reduction devices also take money out of your pocket, but it ends up in some other charlatan's pocket, not ours. Only a genuine Money Harvester collects and stores your money in our pocket, where it’s gone forever.
 

ravh

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Now, if only Amir could get a hold on one of PS Audio power plants.
 

exaudio

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I have an older Monster power conditioner, switcher, with a voltage and current display. They used to sell the discontinued ones at major discounts. I never heard any difference from it, but it does what I bought it for, switching on and off my amp that has no power switch.

I have one of those but left it in our old house! Wanted to see the voltage all the time so it was good for that.

I'm more interested in the conditioning aspect anyway. That would be great. I have a furman PST-2+6, but I dont really think it does much. Some of the larger behemoths use a gigantic toroid and a bunch of other RF filters.
69223


Here's my Monster Power AVS 2000 and PowerCenter HTS 5000 "with clean power stage four filtering".

monster_power2.jpeg



Recently I pulled out my Rigol 1054Z and a differential voltage probe to measure the AC mains both at the wall and after passing through the Monster stuff. The wave forms going in and coming out look more or less identical. As do the FFT spectra. The sample depth of the Rigol is eight bits, so not nearly as precise as @amirm's AP, but my wave forms did look like they had similarly deformed peaks to Amir's (only mirror imaged).

NewFile1monstq.png



The Rigol's built-in FFT spectrum analyzer is pretty basic so I exported the samples to my PC to plot the spectra against each other:

ac_mains_fft_spectrum_with_monster_power3.png




To my eye the FFTs are pretty much identical. Next I converted the AC voltage samples to a wave audio file so I could import it into REW and could use REW's RTA tool to get the THD. REW says THD is 2.39%. I don't know if that's normal or not but it's not all that far off from Amir's THD+N of 2.93%.

rew_spectrum_60hz_ac_mains.png


Fortunately I never expected any audible difference and even if it doesn't do a lot of filtering--at least that I can measure--whatever it does, it's still doing it after 20 years so I figure it was built well. Anyway I like the voltage and current read outs and you can never have too many Vu meters.
 

digicidal

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I never had enough room in my rack for an AVS2K, but I contemplated getting one a few times for the "looks". Finally grabbed a Belkin PureAV PF60 for the same purpose (line info display) as well as bank switching for my amps without a 12V trigger. Interesting that they've been discontinued and yet still command prices similar to retail for used models. I like the Furman models for the same reason... but $400+ is way too much for just a pretty placeholder. I think I only paid $129 for mine on closeout many years ago...
1592558456670.png
 

TimmyS

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The Greenwave tester company also makes "noise harvesters" that are available on amz. I wonder of they do anything? Also there is a company that makes plug in "transformers" that are supposed to give better sound to your equipment plugged into the same circuit. Two are even better! I tried 2 of them out but did not hear bupkis. (and at the time they were about $750 each!) I lent them to a friend (who wrote for AV magazines) and asked him to try them out. He did not hear anything either.
 

solderdude

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The Greenwave tester company also makes "noise harvesters" that are available on amz. I wonder of they do anything?

They will do a similar thing. Whether or not they actually do something beneficial/worthwhile is highly unlikely.
 
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solderdude

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And then there's the Tice clock.

Talking about clock and mains frequency. It is known that the mains frequency varies somewhat during the day. I was told that those making the mains always regulated the frequency so that at the end of 24 hours the exact needed sine waves were generated so that most clocks (back in the day) that would run on synchronous motors would remain accurate during months.
I don't even know if that's actually true or that he was pulling my leg. I do know that the few clocks I had that ran on mains were always accurate unless a power outing had happened.
Someone knows if it is (or was) a thing and is it still today ?
 

sergeauckland

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Talking about clock and mains frequency. It is known that the mains frequency varies somewhat during the day. I was told that those making the mains always regulated the frequency so that at the end of 24 hours the exact needed sine waves were generated so that most clocks (back in the day) that would run on synchronous motors would remain accurate during months.
I don't even know if that's actually true or that he was pulling my leg. I do know that the few clocks I had that ran on mains were always accurate unless a power outing had happened.
Someone knows if it is (or was) a thing and is it still today ?
It's still a thing today. Whilst the frequency does vary very slightly during the day, it slows down during periods of high demand, the total number of cycles in a 24 hour period remains the same and is the right number overall. Maximum variation has to be within +-0.5Hz, and is usually a lot lower than that. Currently 50.013Hz

https://gridwatch.co.uk/frequency

S.
 

Speedskater

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Getting back to 50/60Hz AC power line source impedance:
a 120V, 20A circuit with a 5V drop would have a 60Hz source impedance of 0.25 Ohm
a 240V, 100A circuit with a 10V drop would have a 60Hz source impedance of 0.10 Ohm
* * * * * * * * *
link to a wide band British study (scroll down to (mains stuff){mains impedance}
http://www.acoustica.org.uk/
 

mansr

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Talking about clock and mains frequency. It is known that the mains frequency varies somewhat during the day. I was told that those making the mains always regulated the frequency so that at the end of 24 hours the exact needed sine waves were generated so that most clocks (back in the day) that would run on synchronous motors would remain accurate during months.
I don't even know if that's actually true or that he was pulling my leg. I do know that the few clocks I had that ran on mains were always accurate unless a power outing had happened.
Someone knows if it is (or was) a thing and is it still today ?
The grid frequency is adjusted to maintain a long-term average very close to 50 Hz, though I don't think the requirement is quite as strict as suggested. A few links on the topic:
https://wwwhome.ewi.utwente.nl/~ptdeboer/misc/mains.html
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-43321113
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-20629671
 
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