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PS Audio Noise Harvester AC Cleaner Review

anmpr1

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Whether what Paul and others are doing rises to the level of a fraud, or even a hoax (in their legal sense) is a good question. I guess it could be an FTC thing if someone wanted to class action it. I know that if Paul was selling organic 'health' supplements he'd have to put a disclaimer on the package--indicating that “The claims made for this product have not been evaluated by the Federal Trade Commission, the Audio Engineering Society, or the American Psychiatric Association. Thus, this device is not intended to diagnose, treat, or cure your audio neurosis."

The cynical argument, I suppose, is that anyone spending dollars on this sort of thing will convince themselves of the product's intrinsic benefit, and consequently will feel good about themselves over it. Money well spent in the scheme of things. At least until the next nonsense item comes along. And as long as there is someone at Stereophile to bark for it. I'd include dealers in the scheme, but dealers appear to be becoming extinct. So how much of this stuff is sold via stores? I don't know.
 

mhardy6647

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I don't think "fraud" is the right word to use with components like the titular noise harvester (FWIW).
Further, I don't believe (?!) I've seen the words caveat emptor in this thread.

I am just not sure there's a problem if people buy something and they're happy with it after the purchase that there's any real issue.
I mean, heck, people buy FCA automotive products! ;)

The whole fashion industry -- and the cosmetics/personal industry, too -- pretty much trades on what (apparently) some would label fraud.

EDIT: Just to be clear, I think the "noise harvester" is a silly product. I don't think it is a criminally silly product, though. :rolleyes:
 
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Jimbob54

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I don't think "fraud" is the right word to use with components like the titular noise harvester (FWIW).
Further, I don't believe (?!) I've seen the words caveat emptor in this thread.

I am just not sure there's a problem if people buy something and they're happy with it after the purchase that there's any real issue.
I mean, heck, people buy FCA automotive products! ;)

The whole fashion industry -- and the cosmetics/personal industry, too -- pretty much trades on what (apparently) some would label fraud.
Bingo. If you buy a £500 power cord and your device works when plugged in, job done. Now, if its not constructed in a way that the advertising render shows, maybe argument its fraudulent. But if you don't hear the magic, clearly the rest of your system isn't resolving enough. Lols.
 

mhardy6647

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Bingo. If you buy a £500 power cord and your device works when plugged in, job done. Now, if its not constructed in a way that the advertising render shows, maybe argument its fraudulent. But if you don't hear the magic, clearly the rest of your system isn't resolving enough. Lols.
Well, "you" (the buyer) should also feel you "got your money's worth" in terms of whatever fuzzy (or concrete) expectations you had.
That being said... I think (???) PS Audio offers some sort of return policy for a purchased-new product. Even a tiny little box that turns noise into light. (?)

at least for customers in the US, this appears to be the case(?):
https://www.psaudio.com/audition/
 

KaiserSoze

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Nah, I'll let you keep frothing. You've got a list there of audiophile companies successfully prosecuted for fraud, I'm sure.

No, I do not have that, but what I do have, which you clearly do not have, is a reasonably correct understanding of the legal definition of fraud.

Please note it was you who brought up the idea of criminality. That in itself was kind of weird in the first place, because my perception is that it is very rare for any branch of government to take criminal action against someone for fraud except for when the fraud was perpetrated against the government. My perception is that fraud is usually brought up in civil cases, sometimes in class actions, but not always in class actions. So I don't even understand why you introduced the question of criminality. If any branch of government were to pursue legal action against anyone who profits from selling audiophile snake oil, it would most likely be a charge of false advertising, not fraud per se. But false advertising also varies with the jurisdiction. Depending on the jurisdiction, false advertising might be a criminal offense, or it might be considered a civil offense in which case it would have to be settled in a civil court even if the action had been taken by, for example, a district attorney's office. On the other hand, simple retail sales generally fall under the heading of contract law, and in general, anytime that any party to a contract makes false representations or even withholds information that should have been shared with the other party, fraud has occurred.
 

Jimbob54

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No, I do not have that, but what I do have, which you clearly do not have, is a reasonably correct understanding of the legal definition of fraud.

Please note it was you who brought up the idea of criminality. That in itself was kind of weird in the first place, because my perception is that it is very rare for any branch of government to take criminal action against someone for fraud except for when the fraud was perpetrated against the government. My perception is that fraud is usually brought up in civil cases, sometimes in class actions, but not always in class actions. So I don't even understand why you introduced the question of criminality. If any branch of government were to pursue legal action against anyone who profits from selling audiophile snake oil, it would most likely be a charge of false advertising, not fraud per se. But false advertising also varies with the jurisdiction. Depending on the jurisdiction, false advertising might be a criminal offense, or it might be considered a civil offense in which case it would have to be settled in a civil court even if the action had been taken by, for example, a district attorney's office. On the other hand, simple retail sales generally fall under the heading of contract law, and in general, anytime that any party to a contract makes false representations or even withholds information that should have been shared with the other party, fraud has occurred.

I fell asleep somewhere around the third sentence. Do forgive me.

My understanding of fraud is all well and good thank you. Both in the common parlance and the legal. As pointed out by others here , the audiophile market isnt alone in having peddlers of fluff and nonsense. I think we all need to accept it, call it out for what it is and not get our proverbial underwear in knots every time some high end peddlers of such stuff get referred to here.
 

KaiserSoze

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Here's a couple of brief excerpts from useful articles found on Wikipedia. First, concerning caveat emptor:

"Under the principle of caveat emptor, the buyer could not recover damages from the seller for defects on the property that rendered the property unfit for ordinary purposes. The only exception was if the seller actively concealed latent defects or otherwise made material misrepresentations amounting to fraud."

So what is the definition of fraud?

"In law, fraud is intentional deception to secure unfair or unlawful gain, or to deprive a victim of a legal right. Fraud can violate civil law (i.e., a fraud victim may sue the fraud perpetrator to avoid the fraud or recover monetary compensation), a criminal law (i.e., a fraud perpetrator may be prosecuted and imprisoned by governmental authorities), or it may cause no loss of money, property or legal right but still be an element of another civil or criminal wrong.
 

KaiserSoze

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I fell asleep somewhere around the third sentence. Do forgive me.

My understanding of fraud is all well and good thank you. Both in the common parlance and the legal. As pointed out by others here , the audiophile market isnt alone in having peddlers of fluff and nonsense. I think we all need to accept it, call it out for what it is and not get our proverbial underwear in knots every time some high end peddlers of such stuff get referred to here.


No, you have made it all too apparent that you do not understand the concept of fraud. I kept this one short because I was afraid that if I wrote more than one or two sentences you might pass out.
 

AudioSceptic

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No, you have made it all too apparent that you do not understand the concept of fraud. I kept this one short because I was afraid that if I wrote more than one or two sentences you might pass out.
Can we please dial this down a few notches? Forums like this work best when everyone is polite and respectful.
 

Killingbeans

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But the "mad dogs" quickly claim that since some claims are fraudulent, then the entire company's product line is too.

I actually get the impression that Mr. McGowan is a man who belives his own BS. What most of us has no problem identifying as snake oil, he sees as "innovation". I have no problem accepting that many of the products have core functions, that are not affected by this misguided quest.

I don't see PS Audio as a criminal organization. Just as a company that's wandering down a sad and confused road.

If I have to give money to a company, I'd much rather give it to some that do real innovation. Not those that grasp at straws and fool both themselves and their customers in the process.
 

Jimbob54

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I don't see PS Audio as a criminal organization. Just as a company that's wandering down a sad and confused road.

/QUOTE]

A very lucrative one- not sure there is much sadness or confusion at PSA HQ. I think they know exactly what they are doing. I suspect they are quite well lawyered up too.
 

egellings

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Has anyone gotten two of these harvesters and plugged them both into the two outlets on the same duplex outlet and watched the two blinking lights? The two harvesters would be wired in parallel across the same voltage source, and would get identical signals. Do they blink together in sync, or do the two harvesters blink at different times & rates, unrelated to each other? That could say a little about what they are doing, maybe.
 

Jimbob54

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Has anyone gotten two of these harvesters and plugged them both into the two outlets on the same duplex outlet and watched the two blinking lights? The two harvesters would be wired in parallel across the same voltage source, and would get identical signals. Do they blink together in sync, or do the two harvesters blink at different times & rates, unrelated to each other? That could say a little about what they are doing, maybe.

If anyone here has bought even one , I am moving for instant disbarment and a damn good thrashing.
 

egellings

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I won't. It would be an interesting experiment to do, though. See if 2 Harvesters behave identically or not when both are plugged into the same outlet.
 

mhardy6647

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I won't. It would be an interesting experiment to do, though. See if 2 Harvesters behave identically or not when both are plugged into the same outlet.
OK.
Now I am thinking about reversing the hot and neutral prongs on one of the two or something and seeing whether the noise on the mains goes up, something somewhere blows up (the pole mounted transformer?), or a small local black hole forms...
 
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NormB

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OK.
Now I am thinking about reversing the hot and neutral prongs on one of the two or something and seeing whether the noise on the mains goes up, something somewhere blows up (the pole mounted transformer?), or a small local black hole forms...

I wouldn't think of doing it.

I read in a product review online once that this reverses the electricity, so you get CA instead of AC getting into your system.

Makes things like "I am the eggman" come out sounding like "I buried Paul."

Wouldn't be prudent...

;-)
 

mansr

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I read in a product review online once that this reverses the electricity, so you get CA instead of AC getting into your system.
Isn't that what they have in France? Explains a lot.
 

Justin Ayers

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If the LED doesn't dissapate enough power could we hook this up to a Tesla coil, or some other type of device? I would love an amp that periodically zaps and sparks- like something in Dr. Frankenstein's lab.
I want someone to build me an amp that has both mercury and xenon thyratrons, purely for the aesthetics.

(Being blinded by the UV is merely an extra side benefit.)

Joking aside, I have actually thought about starting a business that sells "tube" equipment where the tubes are purely aesthetic, having nothing but LEDs in them and not interacting with the equipment in any manner other than visual. The benefits are considerable. Not only do you have the lovely aesthetics, you have a much longer lifespan — and you don't have the issues of heat, noise, and expense. You can also focus on aesthetics first in their design, rather than electrical performance characteristics. What would be particularly neat is if the arcing of thyratrons could be simulated with LEDs, in a cost-effective long-lasting way.

I know some of the "hybrid" amps are getting to that point already (tubes being mostly decorative or being a drawback in terms of audio quality) but why not go the whole way and make them purely aesthetic? Tell the customer, very clearly, that they're only decorative. I am sure some would prefer that over the reduced audio quality, unreliability, heat, greater difficulty in keeping them from being damaged, price, time wasted looking for NOS special sauce tubes, etc. The key is to make them look really nice and give them the flair of authentic nostalgia.

I have a lot of good business ideas and no money so that's that. Someone else will read this post and profit from it. Similarly, I knew to invest in AMD when it was way way down and didn't have money then either. C'est la vie.
Thanks for the excellent review - AGAIN!

I am just sad that it's not illegal to rip off gullible and uneducated people this way...
Caveat emptor has been too prominent in business since the start of business, I'd wager. Abstractions like fiat currency and globalized corporations make it even harder for people to know the cost of things. This article puts things into perspective. I strongly suggest reading the whole thing and considering how it relates to protections against products like this.
 
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