• Welcome to ASR. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

PS Audio got a Klippel NFS

But what good is the answer if you haven't actually defined "musicality" prior to setting AI to the task?

And does not the "feel" and/or "musicality" of a song reside in the source? If you found a given song particularly musical, and it was recorded and mixed perfectly, would you not want it reproduced in your home through the most accurate, neutral reference system possible? How could you expect to maintain those traits that you prize while using a system that is audibly colored, either intentionally or as a result of poor design?
I can agree with that. However, I do not want to overlook the fact that these are the people who ultimately have the final say on the tonality and overall sound. Nothing is more accurate than the master recording itself, and if some mastering engineers prefer listening to music on systems that add coloration through vinyl, tube amplifiers, or horn-loaded speakers, I think that validates how important those qualities can be to some people who truly enjoy music.
 
I understand that this does not apply to all mastering engineers. I also understand that the systems they use at work need to translate well across everything from cellphones to high-end audio systems. However, the personal systems some professionals choose for enjoyment do not necessarily need to be perfectly accurate, and some seem to prefer them that way.
 
I can agree with that. However, I do not want to overlook the fact that these are the people who ultimately have the final say on the tonality and overall sound. Nothing is more accurate than the master recording itself, and if some mastering engineers prefer listening to music on systems that add coloration through vinyl, tube amplifiers, or horn-loaded speakers, I think that validates how important those qualities can be to some people who truly enjoy music.
As someone who you're having a debate about...

Most prefer fairly neutral speakers. Pretty much all of my colleagues and I want something that gets out of the way.
 
Most prefer fairly neutral speakers. Pretty much all of my colleagues and I want something that gets out of the way.
Count me in. I've never had such a good sound quality in all systems in the house since changing to accurate studio monitors (K&H, Genelec, Neumann). And for those who do not like neutral speakers: you have to try them for some time! It takes time for the human hearing to adapt to another type of sound, and if you're used to a colored sound it takes to time to appreciate a neutral sound. Afterwards you don't want to go back.

It happened to me when I replaced Taunus style 3 way Heco bookshelfs by a DIY copy of a KEF speaker. I found the DIYs kind of dull (no treble) but my colleague claimed them to be much better than the Hecos. After getting used to the DIYs I switched back to the Hecos and found them terribly aggressive.
 
Count me in. I've never had such a good sound quality in all systems in the house since changing to accurate studio monitors (K&H, Genelec, Neumann). And for those who do not like neutral speakers: you have to try them for some time! It takes time for the human hearing to adapt to another type of sound, and if you're used to a colored sound it takes to time to appreciate a neutral sound. Afterwards you don't want to go back.

It happened to me when I replaced Taunus style 3 way Heco bookshelfs by a DIY copy of a KEF speaker. I found the DIYs kind of dull (no treble) but my colleague claimed them to be much better than the Hecos. After getting used to the DIYs I switched back to the Hecos and found them terribly aggressive.
Taunus Sound ... sigh ... made me to leave these producers. But they recovered, not?
 
I'm not trying to deny science, I just think there is a group of people who simply enjoy a speaker for how it feels in there room and how it makes them connect to the music, rather than how it strictly measures.

How about this instead:

You learn something about measurements and how to interpret them. This forum provides plenty opportunity and viable methods. You analyse your listening habits and taste and how they relate to objective (measured) performance of speakers and their room interaction. Then you choose speakers based on your findings, that fit to your preferences and room both - which you can because of all the things you learned above.

Then you simply put them in your room et voilà, the sound feels great and you really connect with your favourite music and you're having a blast.

All because the science is advanced enough to enable you to make sound predictions, with the help of precise measurements. I bought my current speakers blindly, which isn't very advisable generally, but they work great in this room just as the data said they would. It isn't luck.

Audio science is a tool to get great feeling and musical enjoyment, and it works.
 
This Klippel NFS issue for PS Audio is fascinating from an arm's length position. The moment that Paul decided to build speakers (and probably got ) Chris on board, I thought and even mentioned they should get a Klippel. Both Paul and Chris said, nah, they can manage in their space. They posted pictures of Chris maneuvering rather dangerously to make the measurements of their tests.

I remember in business school, taking the MarkStrat game (yes, decades ago), how important was spending in R&D in order to get growth. Companies that "cut" R&D tended to do poorly in the long term. If you REALLY decide to enter a field, you have to spend the money to be able to play. Paul decided to spend in his recording studio, to make "audiophile" recordings and not to provide Chris with the proper tools.

Some of the earlier speakers (if I recall correctly) didn't measure that well (I think Erin posted one where the cost was very high and the performance was OK).

Paul can do whatever he wants with his money. It is his company. But, what is it, almost 8 years since he decided to get in that he gets the Klippel? After how many iterations?

I'm glad for Chris, but as I said before, he should have required the Klippel to take the job. Not for me to decide. It's for him. Im just glad I got AsciLab's C8C....
[Typos corrected at edit]
 
I'm not trying to deny science, I just think there is a group of people who simply enjoy a speaker for how it feels in there room and how it makes them connect to the music, rather than how it strictly measures. After seeing Amirs latest video at
I had a just for fun idea to try an experiment using AI data gathering, following his exact disclosure methods. The unedited AI research, which you can see at https://gemini.google.com/share/9685379c9995 actually shows a huge split even among professional mastering engineers, with many preferring subjectively voiced consumer gear over flat reference monitors when they listen to music at home. As a layperson, I just wanted to point out that we exist, and there is room for both preferences in this hobby.
What @Ropeburn said above.

And another.
People search and try to "upgrade" . Fine by me.

But upgrade what exactly?
What each one identifies as an upgrade exactly?
All we hear when someone upgrades is that they heard differences. And ok, scrap bias and lets assume they are right.
What are these differences apart of lifted veils?

Measurements and the way to read them can help tremendously.
Want more meat? Choose adequate mid-bass. Lack of drama? Choose adequate clean SPL.
You suffer from strong sibilants (as I am, can't stand them) ? Choose lean mid-highs up to 8kHz or so.

And so on.
 
I just think there is a group of people who simply enjoy a speaker for how it feels in there room and how it makes them connect to the music, rather than how it strictly measures
Nobody has any problem with this. The reality is that they don't stop there. They always do one of two things, both of which are denialist:

1) strenuously claim that their speaker is super accurate and the measurements are wrong
2) strenuously claim that they can hear stuff that can't be measured and the measurements are irrelevant

Surely you can't be surprised that a forum called Audio Science Review would be dissatisfied by those denialist behaviors?
 
I can agree with that. However, I do not want to overlook the fact that these are the people who ultimately have the final say on the tonality and overall sound. Nothing is more accurate than the master recording itself, and if some mastering engineers prefer listening to music on systems that add coloration through vinyl, tube amplifiers, or horn-loaded speakers, I think that validates how important those qualities can be to some people who truly enjoy music.
This reveals a gross misunderstanding of what a mastering engineer is and does.

But more to the point, if a survey of Michelin star chefs reveals that when they are eating at home they prefer to douse every bite of food in ketchup, would you take that as an indication that all food must be better doused in ketchup? would you emulate their behavior?
 
Toole convincingly demonstrated speakers that measured accurately were preferred in blind testing.
I guess it depends on what you are trying to get out of the hobby. My enjoyment of music comes from the feelings it creates and from being genuinely wowed by the sound. You may be trying to make your system measure as closely as possible to a target curve that was developed and commercialized to make money by averaging what groups of people selected in blind studies as sounding "the best."
 
I guess it depends on what you are trying to get out of the hobby. My enjoyment of music comes from the feelings it creates and from being genuinely wowed by the sound. You may be trying to make your system measure as closely as possible to a target curve that was developed and commercialized to make money by averaging what groups of people selected in blind studies as sounding "the best."
You make it seem like an accurate speaker cannot create feelings and genuine "wow" moments. :rolleyes:
 
I guess it depends on what you are trying to get out of the hobby. My enjoyment of music comes from the feelings it creates and from being genuinely wowed by the sound. You may be trying to make your system measure as closely as possible to a target curve that was developed and commercialized to make money by averaging what groups of people selected in blind studies as sounding "the best."
 
I guess it depends on what you are trying to get out of the hobby. My enjoyment of music comes from the feelings it creates and from being genuinely wowed by the sound. You may be trying to make your system measure as closely as possible to a target curve that was developed and commercialized to make money by averaging what groups of people selected in blind studies as sounding "the best."
ZZZzzzzzzz
 
You may be trying to make your system measure as closely as possible to a target curve that was developed and commercialized to make money by averaging what groups of people selected in blind studies as sounding "the best".
The fact that the majority of these studies were originally funded by public dollars and not by commercial entities notwithstanding, this sounds like a pretty good idea to me. Opinions stripped of as much bias as possible are often the only opinions worth paying attention to. And lo and behold, most people in such studies have been found to prefer accuracy to a clearly colored signal.

Again, what exactly about an accurate system precludes or even diminishes enjoyment? If such a system isn't to your liking, it would seem that your issue is with the musicians and/or the engineers who created the recordings.
 
I guess it depends on what you are trying to get out of the hobby. My enjoyment of music comes from the feelings it creates and from being genuinely wowed by the sound. You may be trying to make your system measure as closely as possible to a target curve that was developed and commercialized to make money by averaging what groups of people selected in blind studies as sounding "the best."
I would say that the greatest qualities of music come from the composition, the musician, the musicianship which often includes improvisation, the recording including venue, the mastering and then the playback equipment which is far down the list when compared those other things. But here's the deal my subjective attachment to those higher order things are my feelings that can not be controlled or shared if there is not a common constructs in which to share them. At ASR that construct is the measurement of the quality of the stored signal coming out of the transducer. We can argue Beethoven's 9th vs 6th all day and both be right. Having the most accurate playback is part means not the end of the enjoyment. Most of us here have vast collections that we passionately curate and are not designing audio gear. Your supposition that we are not music lovers first is flawed and would argue that it is that engagement that makes us want the best of the best, like any enthusiast.

Read Toole's latest book and watch a few of Amirs videos. Many buy some inexpensive equipment that tests well and play your favorite music. Or as they say walk a mile in our shoes.
 
You make it seem like an accurate speaker cannot create feelings and genuine "wow" moments. :rolleyes:
Infact the ideal, perfectly accurate speaker-room system goes from 0.0001 Hz upwards perfectly flat, at zero distortion and unlimited SPL. Let's say "good enough" is doing that up to human hearing pain threshold.

Such a system would be the ultimate achievement in terms of wow factor! :D
 
I can predict the following changes in PS Audio speakers based on this:

1) Change from planar transducers to point-source, moving coil drivers, since a point source provides more symmetrical radiation and a moving coil platform suffers less nonlinear distortion.
2) Introduction of a HF and possibly MF waveguide, for controlled and matched dispersion.
3) Driver arrays will group LF drivers closer to the HF and MF components instead of clustering woofers of a tower speaker near the floor.
4) A coincident midrange-tweeter array will provide symmetrical vertical and horizontal radiation. Possibly with cardioid radiation of the rear wave to control horizontal dispersion beyond the ability of the waveguide at lower midrange frequencies.
5) Powered cardioid bass in more complex assemblies.
6) Hard metallic-oxide diaphragms instead of fiber constructions

CEA2034 methodology favors speakers exhibiting a specific set of behaviors, so the only speakers that will appear to measure 'well' are those that fully embrace its dictates and assumptions. If your weather vane is properly calibrated, you will see which direction the wind is blowing. Many formerly perfectly acceptable speakers are now landfill.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top Bottom