PS Audio got a Klippel NFS

[Palmer]

This is just as ineffective in the long run as falsifying or manipulating the measurement data from an APx Audio Analyzer.
If someone is actually selling speakers or equipment, someone will eventually take measurements. Every manufacturer should be aware of what this means for their company, their reputation, and their sales.
In the worst-case scenario, any buyer can even return the device/speaker after five years due to fraud.

While I largely agree with you - "Long Run" does really not come into the equation anymore, when it comes to money. What, or who - are you going to return your devices to, when the culprit is gone?

Cheers

 

[Roland68]

While I largely agree with you - "Long Run" does really not come into the equation anymore, when it comes to money. What, or who - are you going to return your devices to, when the culprit is gone?

Cheers

But people who disappear after a scam don't invest a small fortune in an APx unit or a Klippel system.
On the other hand, a company can very quickly get into trouble these days and become insolvent.

 

[Palmer]

Dear fellow, you have the wrong impression of "small fortune" , but that's a whole other thread. My point was, again - if I were Klippel, and I sell my product worldwide, I would invest in countermeasures. For good measure...

I'll get my coat. Cheers

 

[Sal1950]

I'll get my coat. Cheers

No need of a coat here in FL..

 

[bogart]

That’s not at all what is going on here. Actually, it’s much simpler. I developed a pretty successful line of speakers (partly thanks to marketing, marketing, marketing and Paul’s community building and engagement) and am a mostly one man show for design/engineering/QA and have been asking to budget for this for a number of years.

It’s a very unique offering and an automated tool like that will improve product performance, productivity, time to market, etc. I’m now getting the chance to work on a number of new designs and excited to employ it to make better products that will bring enjoyment and beautiful music

Hey @Chris Brunhaver - always enjoy seeing your participation here, and congrats on all you've accomplished, and the tailwind you'll have from the new test rig.

I'm curious from your experience as a solo operator - would +1 person make a big difference to you, or would you need to get to a small team before you'd expect to feel significant benefits? I'd imagine there's some major efficiencies from being The Guy, even if it means it's all in your hands.

 

[Roland68]

Dear fellow, you have the wrong impression of "small fortune" , but that's a whole other thread. My point was, again - if I were Klippel, and I sell my product worldwide, I would invest in countermeasures. For good measure...

I'll get my coat. Cheers

It always depends on your perspective.
I can't just casually buy 50-100k worth of measuring equipment right now; if you can, that's great for you.

However, I wonder what precautions Klippel is supposed to take?
They have absolutely nothing to do with the customers' measurements.
Once the customer has bought the device, they can do whatever they want with it; Klippel can't influence that anymore.

There are countless videos on YouTube where YouTubers fake or manipulate measurements with multimeters, oscilloscopes, and other measuring equipment. None of the measuring device manufacturers can do anything about it.

 

[Cbdb2]

You could totally klippel (it's a verb now lol) several guitar amps, get the frequency and time and distortion response, then compare it to your taste, and then determine what exact characteristics make or break a guitar amp according to your liking.

That's the beauty of actually understanding measurements. Learn to interpret them and how they relate to your subjective perception, and it will become much easier to get the exact sound you want. Science describes "feeling" rather accurately!

So NFS every amp at every setting , power level and then compare thousands of different plots... to your taste? Your dreaming. Nobody will ever buy a guitar amp based on measurements. Or a violin.

 

[Ropeburn]

So NFS every amp at every setting , power level and then compare thousands of different plots... to your taste? Your dreaming. Nobody will ever buy a guitar amp based on measurements. Or a violin.

Using NFS data would indeed seem difficult and laborious to the point of being entirely unpractical, but it's not a dream. Simpler techniques using convolution of impulse responses already exist.

Ignite Libra | STL Tones | Impulse Response Mixer

The world's first Impulse Response Mixer that allows users to visually mix up to 8 Impulse Responses at the same time. Zero latency. Each IR has it’s own controllable functions for maximum flexibility.

www.stltones.com

"Nobody would buy that" oh really? A simpler technology is already used in reverse for simulating amps/cabs, for custom build purposes. People absolutely buy that. And it's all based on measurements and simulation back and forth. It is not too far out there that in the future we'll be using NFS or similar datasets for the purpose. Remember, these are highly useful design tools and increasingly used everywhere.

 

[EdW]

So NFS every amp at every setting , power level and then compare thousands of different plots... to your taste? Your dreaming. Nobody will ever buy a guitar amp based on measurements. Or a violin.

The problem is that a guitar amp isn’t an amplifier under conventional definition. It amplifies and adds distortion in order to amplify and modify the signal from the pickup to give the electric guitar sound. It is part of the guitar. Used as a straight amplifier in a hifi setup it’s pretty bad.
Back in the field of hifi. Informed and careful use of audio analyzers like AP555 enables the amplifier designer to confirm that his design performs as he predicted from his computer modelling using tools like MATLAB and SPICE. He’ll know what to look for and any possible weaknesses in his design and so he doesn’t have to evaluate any and every unlikely performance corner.
Typo

 

[Jaxx1138]

Using NFS data would indeed seem difficult and laborious to the point of being entirely unpractical, but it's not a dream. Simpler techniques using convolution of impulse responses already exist.

Ignite Libra | STL Tones | Impulse Response Mixer

The world's first Impulse Response Mixer that allows users to visually mix up to 8 Impulse Responses at the same time. Zero latency. Each IR has it’s own controllable functions for maximum flexibility.

www.stltones.com

"Nobody would buy that" oh really? The technology is already used in reverse for simulating amps/cabs, for custom build purposes. People absolutely buy that. And it's all based on measurements and simulation back and forth. It is not too far out there that in the future we'll be using NFS or similar datasets for the purpose.

It is correct that people do this. But this is comparison is a nonequivalent one. The reproduction of music through a "Hi-Fi" loudspeaker requires that the speaker be neutral and simply a tool in order to maintain fidelity to the recording. In a guitar amp or loudspeaker which is creating music, the amp/loudspeaker is adding elements of coloration and distortion in order to achieve a desired sound. This can be modeled and as stated before. But the metrics of importance between these two types of devices will often not be the same metrics. The goals here are different. Music creation is a very different animal than Hi-Fi sound reproduction. It is an application dependent engineering solution.

 

[Cbdb2]

Using NFS data would indeed seem difficult and laborious to the point of being entirely unpractical, but it's not a dream. Simpler techniques using convolution of impulse responses already exist.

Ignite Libra | STL Tones | Impulse Response Mixer

The world's first Impulse Response Mixer that allows users to visually mix up to 8 Impulse Responses at the same time. Zero latency. Each IR has it’s own controllable functions for maximum flexibility.

www.stltones.com

"Nobody would buy that" oh really? A simpler technology is already used in reverse for simulating amps/cabs, for custom build purposes. People absolutely buy that. And it's all based on measurements and simulation back and forth. It is not too far out there that in the future we'll be using NFS or similar datasets for the purpose. Remember, these are highly useful design tools and increasingly used everywhere.

You know any guitar players that would buy a guitar/amp from measurements, with out listening to it? You know any guitar players that would even look at the measurements?

 

[Chris Brunhaver]

Hey @Chris Brunhaver - always enjoy seeing your participation here, and congrats on all you've accomplished, and the tailwind you'll have from the new test rig.

I'm curious from your experience as a solo operator - would +1 person make a big difference to you, or would you need to get to a small team before you'd expect to feel significant benefits? I'd imagine there's some major efficiencies from being The Guy, even if it means it's all in your hands.

Well, I’m not a solo operator. I work with our project manager, occasionally with a contract mechanical engineer, have a two person team in China part time that helps with QC and vendor management and the sales and management team at PS, but it’s still kind of a business in a business of sorts.

I have a part time intern this summer but I am hoping to grow things enough to get a full time ME with significant speaker experience to help me.

Still, a Klippel is a lot more useful than hiring another employee and the automation and lab grade accuracy of it will be awesome now that I’m working on a bunch of new projects

 

[amirm]

Still, a Klippel is a lot more useful than hiring another employee and the automation and lab grade accuracy of it will be awesome now that I’m working on a bunch of new projects

It brings another bonus: it gives you certainty that should I or Erin review your speakers, there won't be surprises. I see this with electronics where companies that follow my measurement protocol, always deliver. And companies that don't, are shocked when I show them data that doesn't match theirs.