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PS Audio FR30 speakers

Mart68

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I think we've been here before in numerous PS Audio threads and the leading monitor designers stressing the importance of listening evaluation in speaker design, even with Klippel and many other design tools and facilities at their disposal.
There's a difference between listening to check that there are no audible issues that measurements may have missed, and designing by ear.

To an extent all commercial designers tend to tell the punters what they want to hear, highlighting the 'artisan' aspect is a pretty common sales tactic for 'high end' hi-fi and many other premium products.
 

Darkscience

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I watched parts of 2 or 3 videos from BSaudio and that was enough to know Paul is a moron or a liar, probably both. He knows zero real electronics and his "tests" are ridiculous. Do yourself a favour and ignore everything he says.
Listen I am with you, but I try to have perspective from a different angle. I know very little about PS Audio other than the fact I wish their gear was more legit because I love the aesthetics. The way I see Paul is he is a genius at being a Master Businessman, and he is also a Master Salesman. I mean Master in the highest form possible, he has to be completely loaded, and that is not by accident, it is because of pure skill at doing what he does, which is making money and selling people gear. He should be commended for being so skilled that he has the ability to build the brand and wealth that he obviously has. I do not like to call people names, but if I did, I might reserve it more for the guy buying his speaker, not himself, but even then, only if the guy is spending his life savings, because there is value in his brand, there is a status that person will have among all other audiophiliacs, of which non of us are, we are mostly engineers and scientists who love music and the science of sound reproduction. Again, not trying to defend anyone, they can do that for themselves, but just saying, Liar? nah Salesman, Moron? nah he knows what he is doing, (business wise). Knows zero real electronics? That could be true idk him. But he sure is a master at Business / People / and Sales, not only that, we are all here talking about him, there are numerous threads about him and his company, that to me implies a level a jelousy, because I know when I could care less I move on, but we go on and on and on, why? Idk. Are we trying to save people from buying his stuff? The rich and uber wealthy? Who cares let them.
 

YSC

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I think we've been here before in numerous PS Audio threads and the leading monitor designers stressing the importance of listening evaluation in speaker design, even with Klippel and many other design tools and facilities at their disposal.
I take that another way. Measuring tells you most of the design is ok or great, but there can be some hidden flaws, say nasty distortion peak or writes resonance somewhere or so which can be missed or buried in the fine detail of measurements, which you can listen and feels “something isn’t right” and go back to figure or measure more to single it out to get solved.

But a bad measurement is most likely telling you something is obviously wrong.

Take it a medical comparison: if you go for a regular body check, all green and you can still have minor hidden sickness somewhere you have to trust your feeling of not being well, thus going for more in depth checks. But if a regular check says you have hypertension, high cholesterol or tumour, you are definitely not healthy.

Bottom line: I do really like PS audio design and feel, but the objective performance and price really kept me away. It’s not a liability for you to defend or proof anything to me personally, but for PS Audio to proof something objective it done to convince audience here in ASR to ever consider their products. I will happily recommend the power regenerator if anyone did showed measurable improvement in output, or even you get a mains “ so noisy that pops are everywhere and once using the power regenerator it’s gone!” So I could recommend someone with the problem to get the said product to solve it. Sadly nothing comes so far so I wouldn’t myself or recommend anyone to go spend that money. Plain and simple

As for this speaker, I myself and I believe quite some others here hold the same stance, from measurement thus far, it looked bad/junk at the price point it asks. But nice that Chris is having a lab measurement on the way and he’s knowledgeable to tell he did measured a lot and come up with this design. So we are waiting for the full measurement data, if that really showed that Chris’s design for off axis gets done nicely, we would just agree it’s not junk and a marketing BS for off axis and can tell those wanted it: yea on axis it’s not good but if you set it up properly it can be great. And vice versa if the lab result is junk also with serious flaw, then nobody here will accept that it’s well done or a good speaker
 

amirm

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Maybe the next ASR equipment investment shold be in something like this :D:
I have bought a much fancier version of these stair climbers. It costs $1,000 and it does the job but it is no use for tall speakers. They can fall over easily and fastening them without scratching is non-trivial. My use for it is for lifting heavy amplifiers up and down the stairs.
 

73hadd

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Cool. Will you be measuring the Salon 2 then? I thought the weight and slippery-ness was the issue (per an earlier reply of yours in another thread saying that). I’m assuming that was before you got this lift.

Edit: I see your reply above about the upstairs/downstairs issue. I’m assuming that’s why you haven’t measured the Salon 2, t
Completely understand. I do remember now someone else joking about hiring movers to come and carry it down the stairs for you. :D

I wasn't joking!

 

jhaider

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It doesn't help that PS Audio's long-term strength is power products

Chris is a loudspeaker and drive unit designer. If memory serves I first encountered him when he was with drive unit specialist Adire Audio (my apologies if I’m confusing you with someone else @Chris Brunhaver!). It’s no more fair to impute non-loudspeaker products to him than it would be to blame a Harman engineer for the defective ice maker in your Samsung fridge.

I see your FR30 are now being used by PS Audio as Octave monitors.

Tee hee. Aren’t you the fellow in that KH420 thread who didn’t understand that the difference between “studio” and “hifi” speaker is marketing/distribution and usually cabinet finish? It looks like PS Audio understands something you don’t. That you came to ASR to defend the honor of a quote-power product-unquote explains quite a lot…
 

DWI

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Listen I am with you, but I try to have perspective from a different angle. I know very little about PS Audio other than the fact I wish their gear was more legit because I love the aesthetics. The way I see Paul is he is a genius at being a Master Businessman, and he is also a Master Salesman. I mean Master in the highest form possible, he has to be completely loaded, and that is not by accident, it is because of pure skill at doing what he does, which is making money and selling people gear. He should be commended for being so skilled that he has the ability to build the brand and wealth that he obviously has. I do not like to call people names, but if I did, I might reserve it more for the guy buying his speaker, not himself, but even then, only if the guy is spending his life savings, because there is value in his brand, there is a status that person will have among all other audiophiliacs, of which non of us are, we are mostly engineers and scientists who love music and the science of sound reproduction. Again, not trying to defend anyone, they can do that for themselves, but just saying, Liar? nah Salesman, Moron? nah he knows what he is doing, (business wise). Knows zero real electronics? That could be true idk him. But he sure is a master at Business / People / and Sales, not only that, we are all here talking about him, there are numerous threads about him and his company, that to me implies a level a jelousy, because I know when I could care less I move on, but we go on and on and on, why? Idk. Are we trying to save people from buying his stuff? The rich and uber wealthy? Who cares let them.
I've not watched Paul's videos, but have read some of his stuff. He actually just comes across as a hyper-enthusiastic audiophile who loves all aspects of music reproduction and now recording. He has ideas about what he wants to do, it often seems a bit random, and has a team of employed and consultant engineers to carry it out. I think he just wants other people to enjoy it as much as he does, why else would he be launching new ventures in his mid-70s?

I don't get the idea that people buy into brands for status. In high end audio, PS Audio is cheap.
 

ethanchiu10

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I've not watched Paul's videos, but have read some of his stuff. He actually just comes across as a hyper-enthusiastic audiophile who loves all aspects of music reproduction and now recording. He has ideas about what he wants to do, it often seems a bit random, and has a team of employed and consultant engineers to carry it out. I think he just wants other people to enjoy it as much as he does, why else would he be launching new ventures in his mid-70s?

I don't get the idea that people buy into brands for status. In high end audio, PS Audio is cheap.

That's like saying people don't buy Porsches for status because they are cheap compared to Bugattis.
 

DWI

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That's like saying people don't buy Porsches for status because they are cheap compared to Bugattis.
No it isn't. Your statement is like saying anything is cheap compared to D'Agostino (the most expensive brand I can think of). PS Audio is very much one of the cheaper high-end brands and their Stellar range is not high-end at all.

I'm not even sure I understand what a status symbol is amongst audiophiles. I get it with cars, but it helps to live in a country with nice weather and where these things matter, personally I have a car but mostly use public transport, and given hifi sits inside your house, who thinks they get status putting stuff on the internet? As I said, I don't get it.

Branding is a completely different matter, and is a universal value throughout commerce and industry. A brand reflects a set of values and a vision for an entity, how it wishes to be perceived. ASR is as much a brand as anything else. People buy into brands because they identify with those values.
 

Chris Brunhaver

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Chris is a loudspeaker and drive unit designer. If memory serves I first encountered him when he was with drive unit specialist Adire Audio (my apologies if I’m confusing you with someone else @Chris Brunhaver!). It’s no more fair to impute non-loudspeaker products to him than it would be to blame a Harman engineer for the defective ice maker in your Samsung fridge.



Tee hee. Aren’t you the fellow in that KH420 thread who didn’t understand that the difference between “studio” and “hifi” speaker is marketing/distribution and usually cabinet finish? It looks like PS Audio understands something you don’t. That you came to ASR to defend the honor of a quote-power product-unquote explains quite a lot…
That was me and I'd say that's an accurate description. Before that, I kind of grew up in the business and wrote briefly about that here: https://www.psaudio.com/copper/article/attack-of-the-20-foot-tweeter/

After Adire, I went to work for BG (Bohlender Graebener) for 5 years as an engineer and project manager and did some drivers, system design, CAD work, project management, testing/QC etc. After that, my audio stuff was mostly behind the scenes as a hired gun doing drivers for Exodus Audio, Creative Sound Solutions, JTR speakers, DC Audio, and a few others, while working other jobs.

I still keep in touch with Dan from Adire has gone on to do all kinds of good stuff including drivers for all kinds of guys (velodyne, magico, rockport, sonos and headphones for his own brand, periodic audio, dolby and blue microphones, among others). We actually use some of the tools and tech that they developed in on some of our woofers here.

I reached out to Paul through youtube, after he mentioned BG being out of business (being acquired by Christie Digital) and his interest in making a planar magnetic/AMT (after Arnie's passing).
 

HarmonicTHD

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I've not watched Paul's videos, but have read some of his stuff. He actually just comes across as a hyper-enthusiastic audiophile who loves all aspects of music reproduction and now recording. He has ideas about what he wants to do, it often seems a bit random, and has a team of employed and consultant engineers to carry it out. I think he just wants other people to enjoy it as much as he does, why else would he be launching new ventures in his mid-70s?

I don't get the idea that people buy into brands for status. In high end audio, PS Audio is cheap.
Please watch the vids, then you might be able to better understand why people react as they do when they hear Paul/PS Audio.
 

Chris Brunhaver

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I don’t get the hate speech notion of things, what I see more here is the negative on the only published measurement with the huge peaks and nulls, which by what most of lurkers here is a bad thing on its own. For the side of unable to afford I can’t agree as I owned a cayman GT4 which is a few times more expensive than this.

Back to the speaker, appearance and finishing only I would say the final design is a lot better than the prototype when Paul announced the project, and I personally really like how AMT and ribbon tweeters look, but after all for me personally the ultimate thing is how it performs. I am glad you are doing a lab measurement and will publish the results when it’s available. It’s good if say we have a really good off axis FR and nice sound power/distortion matric. Which means in room we don’t need to specially tilt them towards the LP.

But as far as own experience goes, such speakers generally have a nice MLP sound but changes quite rapidly when the MLP is a 3 seat sofa for family. Where flat on axis and controlled directivity is my preference.

Just to say what I personally feels here: if you have a really great measurement graph here, you get tons of praise, if you get there with some potential drawback, say like topping pre90/A90 I forgot have really low input impedance which is not great for high output impedance dacs, ppl like me would question their design choice for the extra SINAD over practical system matching.

And if you have a bad/ put it more politely, subpar measurement initially, you get the mocking or bad comments, if subsequent having some nice and complete measurement, say in FR30, if the listening window curve is really flat and nice with low distortion, you will get the deserved recognition by then and get more bad comment if it isn’t.
Well, the challenging thing with stereo in generally (versus multichannel) is that you really have only one MLP, as you describe. The time and intensity differences of the direct and near reflections has to be quite similar between channels for "stereo" to happen.

That is one of the argument for arrays (CBT or line arrays) because, SPL varies less over an area, so the "sweet spot" should be larger. However, I haven't really experienced this in practice.

There are some value judgement in interpreting measurements and, admittedly not having spent any time with many of these, found a few "no" in the recommended products that were head scratchers.

Also, I think that the extensive use of the preference score is a little reductionist and Sean Olive himself mentions (in Erin's great interview with him) that, while interesting research and waaaay better than the consumer reports rating system, it has accuracy limitations and could use further refinement.
 

CtheArgie

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Well, the challenging thing with stereo in generally (versus multichannel) is that you really have only one MLP, as you describe. The time and intensity differences of the direct and near reflections has to be quite similar between channels for "stereo" to happen.

That is one of the argument for arrays (CBT or line arrays) because, SPL varies less over an area, so the "sweet spot" should be larger. However, I haven't really experienced this in practice.

There are some value judgement in interpreting measurements and, admittedly not having spent any time with many of these, found a few "no" in the recommended products that were head scratchers.

Also, I think that the extensive use of the preference score is a little reductionist and Sean Olive himself mentions (in Erin's great interview with him) that, while interesting research and waaaay better than the consumer reports rating system, it has accuracy limitations and could use further refinement.
Olive and Toole discussed this in detail here a few weeks ago.
 

Cbdb2

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Listen I am with you, but I try to have perspective from a different angle. I know very little about PS Audio other than the fact I wish their gear was more legit because I love the aesthetics. The way I see Paul is he is a genius at being a Master Businessman, and he is also a Master Salesman. I mean Master in the highest form possible, he has to be completely loaded, and that is not by accident, it is because of pure skill at doing what he does, which is making money and selling people gear. He should be commended for being so skilled that he has the ability to build the brand and wealth that he obviously has. I do not like to call people names, but if I did, I might reserve it more for the guy buying his speaker, not himself, but even then, only if the guy is spending his life savings, because there is value in his brand, there is a status that person will have among all other audiophiliacs, of which non of us are, we are mostly engineers and scientists who love music and the science of sound reproduction. Again, not trying to defend anyone, they can do that for themselves, but just saying, Liar? nah Salesman, Moron? nah he knows what he is doing, (business wise). Knows zero real electronics? That could be true idk him. But he sure is a master at Business / People / and Sales, not only that, we are all here talking about him, there are numerous threads about him and his company, that to me implies a level a jelousy, because I know when I could care less I move on, but we go on and on and on, why? Idk. Are we trying to save people from buying his stuff? The rich and uber wealthy? Who cares let them.
Not everyone who buys his crap is rich or stupid. He says stuff thats not true and he knows it, so he's lying or he thinks he's right so he's a moron. He does both. If you respect thiefs (selling you something that doesn't work) I can't help you.
 

retro

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Not everyone who buys his crap is rich or stupid. He says stuff thats not true and he knows it, so he's lying or he thinks he's right so he's a moron. He does both. If you respect thiefs (selling you something that doesn't work) I can't help you.
Come on, do we really need this? So many unnecessary, stupid posts in this thread. Your's is one of many. I'd like to think most of us here, including Amir, would very much like to keep Chris Brunhaver on the forum. He's got great knowledge, skills and experience. Really like hearing about the dev of FR30, awaiting more spins etc. But calling his boss a liar, moron and a thief..well, not very constructive, is it..? Do you, and others, want him to get fed up and stop posting..?!? If so, shame on you. If not, stop this crap. Or start a new thread and keep going..
 

Spkrdctr

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Chris! I can't believe you are still here. I give you a big pat on the back for staying here. The outright abuse and snarky/childish/idiotic posts are normal on the internet. Just ignore the posts that are repetitive. I noticed you have answered some questions a few times. Just engage with the few who are interested in what you are talking about and ignore the rest. In 17 pages of this thread about every 4th post is a slam on you or Paul. Please ignore all of those posts. I appreciate you coming on here and saying that as a company and you personally, are going to start engaging the community with more testing. I always enjoy your opinions and like hearing about your design decisions. Please remember the internet is full of stuffed shorts who think they are "somebody" because they have a keyboard. Thanks for continuing to hang around!
 

ahofer

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Chris! I can't believe you are still here. I give you a big pat on the back for staying here. The outright abuse and snarky/childish/idiotic posts are normal on the internet. Just ignore the posts that are repetitive. I noticed you have answered some questions a few times. Just engage with the few who are interested in what you are talking about and ignore the rest. In 17 pages of this thread about every 4th post is a slam on you or Paul. Please ignore all of those posts. I appreciate you coming on here and saying that as a company and you personally, are going to start engaging the community with more testing. I always enjoy your opinions and like hearing about your design decisions. Please remember the internet is full of stuffed shorts who think they are "somebody" because they have a keyboard. Thanks for continuing to hang around!
Ditto, thanks for hanging around @Chris Brunhaver . Speaker design choices are really interesting, and it sounds like many of the design choices you made, which may or may not affect ASR's favored measurement contours, were deliberate, which is worth discussing and understanding. My position is "skeptical but open to possibilities". The speakers I currently enjoy (Harbeth SHL5+) probably don't have the greatest spins (only other models have been done). Very flat on axis (in my <12KHz range), but baffle step issues and uneven directivity through the frequency range, probably leading to a kind of directivity-based "BBC dip".
 
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