Properties of speakers that creates a large and precise soundstage

[Bjorn]

The CBT is a unique speaker that does not function like typical multiways. It is simply not a useful comparison.

Look, I don't think there are many speakers out there that spit out true constant, narrow vertical beam outside of PA speakers, but those never fire alone, only in arrays. I don't know why people started in the last while saying that vertical reflections are so harmful to clarity and so forth. It sure isn't that clear-cut in the research, where the conclusions I've gathered suggest more or less that the effects range from a very slight benefit/neutral to harmful in experimental settings. Outside of artificial experimental settings, there are so few examples of available speakers that actually allow a person to isolate the effect of vertical reflections without other factors confounding that judgement.

Personally, I've heard consistent and inconsistent vertical directivity combined with good and bad horizontal directivity. I think we are all in agreement that poor, inconsistent horizontal directivity has plenty of bad effects. The only arguments on this point concern what kind of radiation pattern is optimal (wide, narrow, constant, sloping, stepped).

On vertical directivity, we don't even have something resembling a consensus. There are plenty of circumstances in which inconsistent vertical directivity becomes objectionable and plenty where it does not. It is just hard to tell what is good vs. bad when looking at measurements. There hasn't been enough research done on the topic which isn't limited in one sense or another. Consistent vertical directivity on an otherwise excellent speaker I've never had the chance to hear. I would love for an owner of the large Perlisten speakers or for Erin, Amir or any other reviewer to include in their listening some report about how speakers sound at different heights.

My experience is that I will never again buy standard multiway towers, bookshelves or monitors with vertical lobing. But all noncoaxial speakers are impacted by lobing to some extent. How to assess that is the question, and I don't think the right design answer is solely narrow vertical beams.

Our horn speaker does have a constant narrow directivity. But yeah, it is big!

Here is the CBT45 by the way. It was passive.

And the response of the CBT45 vs height at 1m distance.

 

[hvbias]

When I heard the Klipsch K402 with Jubilee bass horn it did project a massive soundstage but with very little depth. The other thing that bothered me is it was always a massive soundstage. Albums like lieder (singer plus piano) made the singer sound humongous. That was one of the reasons I didn't purchase the system.

 

[Curvature]

Our horn speaker does have a constant narrow directivity. But yeah, it is big!

Here is the CBT45 by the way. It was passive.
View attachment 456824


And the response of the CBT45 vs height at 1m distance.
View attachment 456825

I posted the same graph in an attachment above. If I am ever in Norway, I'll try to come by to hear the Vera horn.

 

[Arindal]

it did project a massive soundstage but with very little depth. The other thing that bothered me is it was always a massive soundstage.

Without having ever listened to this particular model, there might be an explanation that the former effect could be attributed to generally high and increasing directivity index towards higher frequencies, and the latter is a typical problem of a broad sound source. Phantom sources basically cannot be more precise and narrow than the real sound sources they originate from.

 

[Bjorn]

I posted the same graph in an attachment above. If I am ever in Norway, I'll try to come by to hear the Vera horn.

You are welcome. I also have the CBTs below, which I am hoping will be ready during this summer.

 

[gnarly]

Look, I don't think there are many speakers out there that spit out true constant, narrow vertical beam outside of PA speakers, but those never fire alone, only in arrays. I don't know why people started in the last while saying that vertical reflections are so harmful to clarity and so forth. It sure isn't that clear-cut in the research, where the conclusions I've gathered suggest more or less that the effects range from a very slight benefit/neutral to harmful in experimental settings. Outside of artificial experimental settings, there are so few examples of available speakers that actually allow a person to isolate the effect of vertical reflections without other factors confounding that judgement.

It's a shame we all don't have more opportunities to experience different beamwidth alternatives. Personally, I believe the first and most important decision in matching a speaker to its task, selecting the horse for the course , is deciding the best radiation pattern.

I do think vertical room reflections have a large effect on sound quality. Between electrostats, line arrays, narrower large horns, ceiling treatments,.....and outdoor listening, I've come to strongly believe in the benefit of reducing ceiling reflections.

The biggest eye opener in all my listening has been an outdoor comparison. My first speaker purchase away from home audio, were Meyer UPA-1ps that I knew were widely used on Broadway. Figured they had to be good. Constant directivity 100x40 horn/compression driver over 12" for use with sub.

Took the UPA's outside onto my deck and was blown away (in comparison to them and my stats inside a large very well threated room..
Heard detail and purity like never before. Exceeded my stats inside. Forever changed my ideas about chasing indoor perfection. Made me say, screw ambiance, screw the sweet spot, room reflections suck.......this sounds too damn good.

The house with the deck is a summer house. Over the course of the winter, it was back to the farm and its very large well treated audio room ...which sounded totally great, best room by far I've ever had. But I couldn't wait for summer and outdoor listening. Spent many years with that seasonal pattern.

Ok, back to ceiling reflections.....
Outside obviously reduces reflections, but there was still the deck floor, and the side of the house the deck was attached to. There was no ceiling/roof above the deck for many listening years.
But It was always so hot on the deck, I finally extended the house roof line over the deck to cover a portion of it, which also covered the speaker area I was used to. Deck still open to the sides as before. Only change in reflections was the capacity for ceiling reflections.
It broke my heart to hear how the sound changed. A good portion of the magic went away.

I still do a lot of outdoor listening /comparing, and outdoor still wins with my MEH's or any other speaker save the dipole stats. I don't have another outdoor setup to use as easily, so comparisons without any vertical reelections have kinda come and gone.

 

[Bjorn]

I find a well treated indoor space to be better than outdoor. Especially because of the spaciousness that can be achieved with proper diffusion.

But it's certainly easier to get the bass great outdoors. That requires a large amount of treatment to be stellar indoor.

 

[Curvature]

It's a shame we all don't have more opportunities to experience different beamwidth alternatives. Personally, I believe the first and most important decision in matching a speaker to its task, selecting the horse for the course , is deciding the best radiation pattern.

I do think vertical room reflections have a large effect on sound quality. Between electrostats, line arrays, narrower large horns, ceiling treatments,.....and outdoor listening, I've come to strongly believe in the benefit of reducing ceiling reflections.

The biggest eye opener in all my listening has been an outdoor comparison. My first speaker purchase away from home audio, were Meyer UPA-1ps that I knew were widely used on Broadway. Figured they had to be good. Constant directivity 100x40 horn/compression driver over 12" for use with sub.

Took the UPA's outside onto my deck and was blown away (in comparison to them and my stats inside a large very well threated room..
Heard detail and purity like never before. Exceeded my stats inside. Forever changed my ideas about chasing indoor perfection. Made me say, screw ambiance, screw the sweet spot, room reflections suck.......this sounds too damn good.

The house with the deck is a summer house. Over the course of the winter, it was back to the farm and its very large well treated audio room ...which sounded totally great, best room by far I've ever had. But I couldn't wait for summer and outdoor listening. Spent many years with that seasonal pattern.

Ok, back to ceiling reflections.....
Outside obviously reduces reflections, but there was still the deck floor, and the side of the house the deck was attached to. There was no ceiling/roof above the deck for many listening years.
But It was always so hot on the deck, I finally extended the house roof line over the deck to cover a portion of it, which also covered the speaker area I was used to. Deck still open to the sides as before. Only change in reflections was the capacity for ceiling reflections.
It broke my heart to hear how the sound changed. A good portion of the magic went away.

I still do a lot of outdoor listening /comparing, and outdoor still wins with my MEH's or any other speaker save the dipole stats. I don't have another outdoor setup to use as easily, so comparisons without any vertical reelections have kinda come and gone.

I remember reading your comparisons and I really appreciate the work you put into that experiment. I don't doubt your reports, but I would inject a lot of doubt into the rationale you describe—why you heard what you heard. It is very hard to disambiguate the variety of circumstances that change from indoor to outdoor.

Take the Meyer UPA1 speakers. Meyer is a serious company that thankfully publishes measurements for most of its models. As you'll see below, these speakers are CD-like but show a lot of lobing and inconsistencies.

Horizontal

Spoiler

Vertical

Spoiler

 

[hvbias]

Without having ever listened to this particular model, there might be an explanation that the former effect could be attributed to generally high and increasing directivity index towards higher frequencies, and the latter is a typical problem of a broad sound source. Phantom sources basically cannot be more precise and narrow than the real sound sources they originate from.

Possibly this could be it, I've found Erin's Audio Corner's series on measurements and what they correlate to most in line with what I've experienced with soundstage/imaging.

 

[gnarly]

I remember reading your comparisons and I really appreciate the work you put into that experiment. I don't doubt your reports, but I would inject a lot of doubt into the rationale you describe—why you heard what you heard. It is very hard to disambiguate the variety of circumstances that change from indoor to outdoor.

Thanks. And I totally agree about the doubt part.
In fact, as I was just now thinking more about the physical realities of the roof over the deck, the roof/ceiling is high enough I'm wondering how much vertical reflections from the Meyer main can be much of a problem. I'm saying to self....doesn't the degradation have to be coming from the sub????

 

[gnarly]

I find a well treated indoor space to be better than outdoor. Especially because of the spaciousness that can be achieved with proper diffusion.

But it's certainly easier to get the bass great outdoors. That requires a large amount of treatment to be stellar indoor.

I've been slowing heading back towards indoors, for the compromise of spaciousness and direct. Not to mention the limited listening time/conditions of outdoors.
The music I like lends more to direct sound, but when spaciousness is right, it's so damn pleasing.

Can't agree more about great bass outdoors. It's THE place to listen/test/measure subs imo.