Professional audio monitoring for video editing studio

[Confused]

Dear all,

My video editing studio deserves an upgrade in the audio department. Sound isn't my speciality, but I've always considered good sound at least as important as good image quality. We make multi-cam recordings of classical music, mainly opera, which is complicated for sound recordings. Therefore I work with professional and sound technicians who are specialised in classical music recordings and whom I trust. I judge the sound of their audio recordings by listening on my AKG headphones directly plugged in my editing iMac. Recently I bought a Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 to use as DAC for my Headphones.

The upgrade that I have mind:
- A stereo pair of Neumann KH 120 II on my desk
- Neumann room calibration microphone
- Focusrite Scarlett 2i2, using XLR-in for speaker connection

Measurements of my studio: 380cm x 320cm. Editing desk is positioned against the longest wall. No acoustic treatment.

Would it be a good idea to upgrade the Focusrite with the Topping LA90 discrete? Stupid question probably: are they the same kind of device?

I edit in Blackmagic Davinci Resolve. This device is video (4K) and audio interface in one. Although I don't know the audio quality it delivers it might be a good option for also connecting a color reference display:

Blackmagic Media Player | Blackmagic Design

Looking forward to your replies.

 

[kemmler3D]

Dear all,

My video editing studio deserves an upgrade in the audio department. Sound isn't my speciality, but I've always considered good sound at least as important as good image quality. We make multi-cam recordings of classical music, mainly opera, which is complicated for sound recordings. Therefore I work with professional and sound technicians who are specialised in classical music recordings and whom I trust. I judge the sound of their audio recordings by listening on my AKG headphones directly plugged in my editing iMac. Recently I bought a Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 to use as DAC for my Headphones.

The upgrade that I have mind:
- A stereo pair of Neumann KH 120 II on my desk
- Neumann room calibration microphone
- Focusrite Scarlett 2i2, using XLR-in for speaker connection

Measurements of my studio: 380cm x 320cm. Editing desk is positioned against the longest wall. No acoustic treatment.

Would it be a good idea to upgrade the Focusrite with the Topping LA90 discrete? Stupid question probably: are they the same kind of device?

I edit in Blackmagic Davinci Resolve. This device is video (4K) and audio interface in one. Although I don't know the audio quality it delivers it might be a good option for also connecting a color reference display:

Blackmagic Media Player | Blackmagic Design

Looking forward to your replies.

I don't think upgrading the Focusrite to the Topping will yield any real audible improvement. KH120II is a good choice. Getting some acoustic treatments in there will be a better use of money than the Topping. Room calibration will definitely help also.

 

[stoo23]

I edit in Blackmagic Davinci Resolve

Cool
Absolutely NO questionable Audio issues there as far as I am aware

You may wish to invest in some kind of External Monitor Volume control, so you don't have to use or 'mess' with how you have Davinci set.
Something simple and Passive like perhaps JBL's 'Nano Patch' would be a great idea, and is quite affordable, tracks well and takes up little desktop space.
Been using mine for ages and got it unused cheap via eBay.

JBL Nano Patch+

 

[msmucr]

Hi,

I also don't think, it's necessary to be so fussy about used DAC. The pair of used speakers, room and placement has far more influence on achieved sound.
I think KH 120 II are good choice given their builtin room correction option.
Furthermore it's important to realize, in this case we're talking about monitors with internal DSP for crossovers and already mentioned room correciton. So it's natively a digital device and when you use its analog inputs, the signal is being converted from analog to digital using built-in ADC at each speaker.
So its performance in absolute terms will be always caped by parameters of this ADC, not that's built-in ADC is bad, but with that in mind you have even less reasons to care about some last tiny variations of parameters of DAC you're using to feed it.

In your mentioned case I would change used interface from 2i2 to something with digital I/Os, which is another input option at new KH 120. So for example 18i8 or 8i6 from Focursrite features coaxial digital SPDIF I/Os, so you can connect such output to the first monitor and than daisy chain it to the second one (and set each monitor to process its respective channel). This way you'll bypass all the intermediate DA and AD conversions altogether, there will be still a sample rate conversion, but that's another story.

As you've mentioned you'd be using it in video studio, I personally would rather opt for 18i8, however not just because of addtional analog I/Os. My reason would be an option of optical input there (ADAT or stereo TOSLINK). That's sometimes pretty handy to have in editing suite/room, because depending on your setup you might want to listen to different source than computer playback via USB. One such example is latency compensated output from TV or certain monitor.
For instance I was in a situation, where direct USB audio output from computer was in perfect (lip)sync with what you see on the screen, but it was slightly out of sync with big TV (connected via AJA card and HDMI). However the TV had own optical output, where was sound taken from HDMI and compensated with latency of its display panel.
So I just switched NLE audio output to AJA HDMI and connected digital monitor controller with optical input and it was then in perfect sync with big TV. You can then quite easily switch inputs from either USB audio or digital input and adapt that to different situations (like working just on screen vs some full setup with a client and big TV for some approval). Another advantage is, such digital output from a TV typically follows its chosen input, so you can listen also to say Blu-Ray player, Xbox or whatever you have connected there.
Compared to some rather expensive dedicated digital monitoring controller, the setup with USB interface like Scarlett lacks some of tactile controls.
You have to use dedicated Focusrite Control software and switch some prepared setups instead of buttons, but it isn't necessarily so big deal.
Of course YMMV with this and maybe you have just a single computer where you connect everything to its built-in graphic card outputs, so that wouldn't bring anything to the table.

Michal

 

[staticV3]

Would it be a good idea to upgrade the Focusrite with the Topping LA90 discrete?

The KH120II uses DSP internally, so first has to digitize the analog inputs.

There's little point in upgrading the DAC, as results will be bottlenecked by the Neumann's ADC.

For best sound quality, you want to input sound digitally, via SPDIF.

Therefore, I'd buy a Komplete Audio 6 MK2 interface. You can use it for MA 1 calibration as well, outputting via SPDIF.

 

[msmucr]

Therefore, I'd buy a Komplete Audio 6 MK2 interface. You can use it for MA 1 calibration as well, outputting via SPDIF.

Are you sure KA 6 Mk2 has option to use volume control for its digital output and route the same main L/R signal to headphones. That's sometimes an Achilles heel of small interfaces without proper internal DSP mixer. That was the case with KA6 Mk1. I haven't used Mk2 and its manual seems to be non-existent , so just asking because such features could be a showstopper for OP's use.

 

[msmucr]

Mea culpa.. I also double checked the latest Focusrite Scarlett Control software, the digital SPDIF output seems to be at fixed level, compared to some of their previous interfaces. You can essentially control level in monitoring mixer using mouse and onscreen fader there, but you can't assign front panel volume knob to digital outputs, which is possible only with analog outs. That's a pity.
Sorry for the confusion with my recommendation. Need to check some different interfaces with digital I/Os besides current Focusrites. I know some smaller ones with optical outs, but that would require additional optical to coax converter to interface with KH 120 though

 

[Confused]

Mea culpa.. I also double checked the latest Focusrite Scarlett Control software, the digital SPDIF output seems to be at fixed level, compared to some of their previous interfaces. You can essentially control level in monitoring mixer using mouse and onscreen fader there, but you can't assign front panel volume knob to digital outputs, which is possible only with analog outs. That's a pity.
Sorry for the confusion with my recommendation. Need to check some different interfaces with digital I/Os besides current Focusrites. I know some smaller ones with optical outs, but that would require additional optical to coax converter to interface with KH 120 though

Thank you for your extensive answer. Good to know that the Neumann KH 120 II have their own DAC built in. Sounds very good to feed them digital then.
Yes, I'm doing everything on a single iMac. We mainly produce for the Internet, so no critical Rec709 color correction needs to be done. Nevertheless I want to be ready for it, with a secondary preview/color correction display (Rec709/HDR). I will check if Blackmagic has an video+audio interface with SPDIF out.
I'm not familiar with SPDIF, the SPDIF sockets on the Neumanns look like RCA to me , but it says SPDIF.

 

[Confused]

The KH120II uses DSP internally, so first has to digitize the analog inputs.

There's little point in upgrading the DAC, as results will be bottlenecked by the Neumann's ADC.

For best sound quality, you want to input sound digitally, via SPDIF.

Therefore, I'd buy a Komplete Audio 6 MK2 interface. You can use it for MA 1 calibration as well, outputting via SPDIF.

Thank you. Would this adapter be suited for input via SPDIF?

 

[dasdoing]

Judging their work with headphones is probably better than doing it in an untreated room. especially the imaging is impossible to judge.
I would rather enhance the headphone experience with something like this: https://www.dear-reality.com/products/dearvr-monitor

 

[Confused]

Judging their work with headphones is probably better than doing it in an untreated room. especially the imaging is impossible to judge.
I would rather enhance the headphone experience with something like this: https://www.dear-reality.com/products/dearvr-monitor

Thank you. Could be interesting for critical judgement. During editing I prefer working with speakers.

 

[msmucr]

Thank you for your extensive answer. Good to know that the Neumann KH 120 II have their own DAC built in. Sounds very good to feed them digital then.
Yes, I'm doing everything on a single iMac. We mainly produce for the Internet, so no critical Rec709 color correction needs to be done. Nevertheless I want to be ready for it, with a secondary preview/color correction display (Rec709/HDR). I will check if Blackmagic has an video+audio interface with SPDIF out.
I'm not familiar with SPDIF, the SPDIF sockets on the Neumanns look like RCA to me , but it says SPDIF.

You're welcome.
SPDIF carries digital stereo signal and has essentially two common flavors - over coaxial cable, terminated with RCA connectors (like analog unbalanced signal), this one is often referred simply as a coax and over plastic optical cable called TosLink, which is referred simply as an optical.
Those two are most common at various devices and KH 120 II has coaxial variant with RCA connectors. So if you use its digital input, you have to employ source with SPDIF coaxial output, or use an additional powered conversion box, which converts that from optical variant (say for $50)

As already touched here, most professional active monitors doesn't have volume control, it may have a trim, but that's for initial adjustment and not normal use. You need to control operational volume by altering signal level somewhere before monitors. In case of much more common analog inputs, it's easy to get an USB interface with variable output level and volume knob or some affordable analog volume control like M-Patch mentioned above.
Unfortunately with digital, it's bit difficult, because not every USB audio interface with suitable digital output can do that and there is just handful monitor controllers with digital I/Os.
Yes under certain conditions, you can use volume control in Windows or MacOS, Linux. But besides some inconvenience it can be also a risky business, because if you forget about that and play some audio at full blast or something else goes wrong, it will blow your socks off (in worst case, it can damage speakers).

So just from top of my head some setup examples, which may work in this scenario, where you would like to use digital inputs at KH 120 (of course you can always go back to your initial idea with something any USB interface with balanced analog outs and employ analog inputs, if digital would be too much hassle for you).

RME Babyface + external optical/coaxial converter before monitors
That's great small interface with loads of functionality, very reliable, perfect HP out for its class, but it's maybe bit pricey just for playback. RME has UC and UCX models with coax output without need for external converter, but it's even more expensive.

Audient iD24 + external optical/coaxial converter before monitors
Should work, I've seen its larger predecessor iD22 together with monitors with digital input and appropriate converter. If you want to be 100% sure before purchase, ask their support for confirmation for iD24, but I think this feature wasn't changed.

Any USB to SPDIF digital interface (like HiFace Two, Topping D10 or even maybe some cheaper dongle... ) + used TC Electronic BMC-2 (check eBay and forums, it's discontinued, but that's suitable monitor controller with digital I/Os with great ergonomy IMO, I still use it at some setups).

Maybe staticV3 will also confirm NI KA6 MK2 has suitable volume control for digital out, but I haven't been able to verify that in its specs/documentation.

 

[EERecordist]

Dear all,

My video editing studio deserves an upgrade in the audio department. Sound isn't my speciality, but I've always considered good sound at least as important as good image quality. We make multi-cam recordings of classical music, mainly opera, which is complicated for sound recordings. Therefore I work with professional and sound technicians who are specialised in classical music recordings and whom I trust. I judge the sound of their audio recordings by listening on my AKG headphones directly plugged in my editing iMac. Recently I bought a Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 to use as DAC for my Headphones.

The upgrade that I have mind:
- A stereo pair of Neumann KH 120 II on my desk
- Neumann room calibration microphone
- Focusrite Scarlett 2i2, using XLR-in for speaker connection

Measurements of my studio: 380cm x 320cm. Editing desk is positioned against the longest wall. No acoustic treatment.

Would it be a good idea to upgrade the Focusrite with the Topping LA90 discrete? Stupid question probably: are they the same kind of device?

I edit in Blackmagic Davinci Resolve. This device is video (4K) and audio interface in one. Although I don't know the audio quality it delivers it might be a good option for also connecting a color reference display:

Blackmagic Media Player | Blackmagic Design

Looking forward to your replies.

You have great source material and because recording is an art, having professional recordists is excellent!

What is the destination for your final product? Perhaps you want a reference archive at the best audio quality too. Internet streaming audio formats vary, they may transcode from your audio format to their more limited audio format, or they may have a preferred audio format. It is a good idea to simulate their audio processing in your studio. On the video side you know color management, color space, and compression formats. Release audio for video is equally complicated.

A calibrated video monitor with a color reference chart on set is valuable. If you have any lighting changes mid-performance, shoot the color charts in rehearsal for each lighting setup. Some new monitors have a little color profiler sensor that folds down and auto-calibration.

 

[staticV3]

Are you sure KA 6 Mk2 has option to use volume control for its digital output and route the same main L/R signal to headphones. That's sometimes an Achilles heel of small interfaces without proper internal DSP mixer. That was the case with KA6 Mk1. I haven't used Mk2 and its manual seems to be non-existent , so just asking because such features could be a showstopper for OP's use.

ASR user @vamp has successfully used a Komplete 6 MK2 for MA 1 calibration:

So after a day of fruitless struggle with Voicemeter Banana trying to combine two interfaces into one, I purchased Native Instruments KA6MK2 and a simplest network switch(as the speakers don't work with internet router). The process went smooth once I spent extra 200$...

That's all I know.

 

[staticV3]

Thank you. Would this adapter be suited for input via SPDIF?

The KH120II has no Toslink input, so no.

Furthermore, such an adapter cannot be used for MA 1 calibration.

During calibration, the same interface which connects to the MA 1 mic, must also output audio to the speakers.

 

[Confused]

You have great source material and because recording is an art, having professional recordists is excellent!

What is the destination for your final product? Perhaps you want a reference archive at the best audio quality too. Internet streaming audio formats vary, they may transcode from your audio format to their more limited audio format, or they may have a preferred audio format. It is a good idea to simulate their audio processing in your studio. On the video side you know color management, color space, and compression formats. Release audio for video is equally complicated.

A calibrated video monitor with a color reference chart on set is valuable. If you have any lighting changes mid-performance, shoot the color charts in rehearsal for each lighting setup. Some new monitors have a little color profiler sensor that folds down and auto-calibration.

Yes, the professional recordists that I work with do a great job, it's an art as you say. Simple audio recordings I do myself (an interview, maybe a string quartet), but I leave live opera to the specialists: large orchestra in the pit, singers with transmitter mics, sometimes a chorus. And all these people move wildly over the stage and change costumes in between. We (camera operators) have our hands full of following the movement and lighting intensity changes. We record 12 bit raw video, white balance and tint is corrected in post. I make white balance measurements and reference shots during a rehearsal because they may vary per scene.

The destination has mainly been Internet streaming. No one wants a DVD or Blu-ray anymore. I grade and deliver in sRGB for best color reproduction on the web.
But the quality of our recordings is certainly good enough for national TV, and that's what I'm aiming for. So yes, a highest quality reference archive is what I keep. At least a clean ProRes file with 24 bit - 48Khz PCM audio. The raw files are weighing to heavy on storage capacity.

The audio I receive and edit with is a stereo mix of 24 bit - 48 KHz .wav format. Finally the audio it's exported as AAC, Constant Bit Rate, 320 Kb/s, 48 KHz, Bus 1 (stereo) and uploaded to Vimeo/Youtube. In an .mp4 with video.

 

[msmucr]

ASR user @vamp has successfully used a Komplete 6 MK2 for MA 1 calibration:


That's all I know.

Thank you for the reply. Hopefully he @vamp can possibly chime in to confirm that, because calibration using Neumann software is one thing, but doesn't tell much about available physical volume control for SPDIF out signal.

In the meantime I've asked Audient support for confirmation of the feature at iD24.

 

[EERecordist]

Yes, the professional recordists that I work with do a great job, it's an art as you say. Simple audio recordings I do myself (an interview, maybe a string quartet), but I leave live opera to the specialists: large orchestra in the pit, singers with transmitter mics, sometimes a chorus. And all these people move wildly over the stage and change costumes in between. We (camera operators) have our hands full of following the movement and lighting intensity changes. We record 12 bit raw video, white balance and tint is corrected in post. I make white balance measurements and reference shots during a rehearsal because they may vary per scene.

The destination has mainly been Internet streaming. No one wants a DVD or Blu-ray anymore. I grade and deliver in sRGB for best color reproduction on the web.
But the quality of our recordings is certainly good enough for national TV, and that's what I'm aiming for. So yes, a highest quality reference archive is what I keep. At least a clean ProRes file with 24 bit - 48Khz PCM audio. The raw files are weighing to heavy on storage capacity.

The audio I receive and edit with is a stereo mix of 24 bit - 48 KHz .wav format. Finally the audio it's exported as AAC, Constant Bit Rate, 320 Kb/s, 48 KHz, Bus 1 (stereo) and uploaded to Vimeo/Youtube. In an .mp4 with video.

That all is excellent! I would check the final stream audio over the platforms on your new monitors and a consumer flat screen with built in speakers, a laptop, and on lower quality soundbars to see how it holds up.

In the audio world, mixes are checked on low quality playback environments. Sometimes people used the original Auratones, one studio even had half of an automotive interior with their old low quality speakers.

In the audio world, it is called translation. People mix and master on a speaker in a room they know, and by experience know it will sound good on a variety of playback systems, high to low.

I would like to hear your streams, maybe other ASR readers too, what are your channels?

 

[vamp]

Thank you for the reply. Hopefully he @vamp can possibly chime in to confirm that, because calibration using Neumann software is one thing, but doesn't tell much about available physical volume control for SPDIF out signal.

In the meantime I've asked Audient support for confirmation of the feature at iD24.

Hi there. So, you can't control volume with a physical knob on Komplete Audio 6 mk 2, you will have to use Windows control(or software with ASIO). You can't listen to earphones and monitors at the same time, you will have to switch the output in Windows. You better take an audio interface with digital out(like the one we are discussing) as KH120II designed for digital input and highs sound much more clear using digital. However I cannot recommend the device(KA 6MK2), I use it only for MA1 calibration and using Motu m2 for headphones and recording voice(shure smb7) and this little device for listening music over spdif

 

[Confused]

That all is excellent! I would check the final stream audio over the platforms on your new monitors and a consumer flat screen with built in speakers, a laptop, and on lower quality soundbars to see how it holds up.

In the audio world, mixes are checked on low quality playback environments. Sometimes people used the original Auratones, one studio even had half of an automotive interior with their old low quality speakers.

In the audio world, it is called translation. People mix and master on a speaker in a room they know, and by experience know it will sound good on a variety of playback systems, high to low.

I would like to hear your streams, maybe other ASR readers too, what are your channels?

Checking on low quality playback environments was also a reason that kept me from investing in high quality speakers (the main reason being the expertise of the recordists). The content would predominantly be played on laptops/desktops. This changed for some during lockdown times. Theatres were closed, but shows had been in preparation for years and were ready to be performed. We recorded many in an empty auditorium for streaming at home. Some viewers streamed on their home theater or TV, with better speakers.