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Probably, my 2.1 system

Z

Zeppelin

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Joined
Mar 6, 2023
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Hi,
I have been reading a lot, searching and making questions, and finally Ihave a solid proposal of a decent 2.1 entre level setup.

The amp is one of the best Aiyima, the Aiyima 08 Pro.
The sub it is going to be a 10" sealed one: KEF Q400B.
And for speakers, which I need them to be small, I am thinking in buying the Dali Zensor Pico, whose specs are these:
62 - 26.500 Hz
Sensibility 84 dB
Imp 6 ohms
SPL 103
230x141x196

I would like to ask to all the community what do you think about not only the speakers, but even MORE IMPORTANT, the relation between the frequency of the subwoofer and the lower of the speaker, 62hz. Would it be better if the speaker frequency goes lower? Or it doesn't matter because the subwoofer is there for a reason and it would be the same if speakers gi down to 45hz?

I have an alternative: Tannuy Mercury 7.1, which I would love to have, but they are bigger (not so much) and when sitting on the desk of the room intented for the speakers, I am at 1m distance to the speakers, and maybe is better the smaller they are. Tannuy specs:
53hz-32Khz
Sensibility: 87db
160x270x194mm

Didn't find the flat response measurement of any of both.

Thanks
 
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My advice...

1. Use spinorama.org to get the best measuring speakers you can afford
2. download rew and get a umik 1 then play with speaker and subwoofer placement to get the best FR you can
3. *potentially get a 2nd sub, as 2 are much better than 1
4. get some sort of dsp, probably a miniDSP or an AVR so that you can make corrections and get the best FR response possible

*in my opinion the relationship between how low the speakers go and the sub is of less importance, because you will be setting the crossover based on measured frequency response anyway. For example, I have two tower speaker, but I cross my subs at 120Hz, because for my room that is the smoothest crossover point and localization of the subs is a small too noticeable problem for me due to their placement near the tower speakers.
 
luft262 said:
*in my opinion the relationship between how low the speakers go and the sub is of less importance, because you will be setting the crossover based on measured frequency response anyway. For example, I have two tower speaker, but I cross my subs at 120Hz, because for my room that is the smoothest crossover point and localization of the subs is a small too noticeable problem for me due to their placement near the tower speakers.
Click to expand...
Thanks for this part.

I would love to have a feedback that do not involve having 2 or 3 subwoofers of 800€, spending 1000€ on giving acoustic treatment to the room or any other thing different than the asked on the thread. I am aware spending 5 times the money value of my setup it would be better, but this is not an option.

If someone can help me with my question it will be very welcome.
Thanks
 
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And don't tell me again that you don't want active speakers!
I don't really understand your request regarding dimensions? Can you share a picture of that table? And they are for near field listening which 1m is.
I really, really can't recommend this especially not at this price.
Nor can I verify this:
What I can recommend is:
And for a small to mid sized room at mid listening range of 2~3 m. Certainly not for desk and at 1 m.
The score and/or EQ score aren't everything. How easy is it to EQ them and how good it translates play a big role.
That will be all from me.
 
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If you're dead set on one of the above speakers and/if neither has a spinorama then I'd get the cheaper of the two since you already have a sub, low extension is irrelevant and there is no objective way to know which sounds better without eq...
 
Zeppelin said:
Hi,
I have been reading a lot, searching and making questions, and finally Ihave a solid proposal of a decent 2.1 entre level setup.

The amp is one of the best Aiyima, the Aiyima 08 Pro.
The sub it is going to be a 10" sealed one: KEF Q400B.
And for speakers, which I need them to be small, I am thinking in buying the Dali Zensor Pico, whose specs are these:
62 - 26.500 Hz
Sensibility 84 dB
Imp 6 ohms
SPL 103
230x141x196

I would like to ask to all the community what do you think about not only the speakers, but even MORE IMPORTANT, the relation between the frequency of the subwoofer and the lower of the speaker, 62hz. Would it be better if the speaker frequency goes lower? Or it doesn't matter because the subwoofer is there for a reason and it would be the same if speakers gi down to 45hz?

I have an alternative: Tannuy Mercury 7.1, which I would love to have, but they are bigger (not so much) and when sitting on the desk of the room intented for the speakers, I am at 1m distance to the speakers, and maybe is better the smaller they are. Tannuy specs:
53hz-32Khz
Sensibility: 87db
160x270x194mm

Didn't find the flat response measurement of any of both.

Thanks
Click to expand...
The subwoofer will handle your low end -- so the FR of the mains doesn't matter. If you are nearfield listening then I'd go with the smaller speakers that fit best in the space and on the desk. At the end of the day, any decent pair of speakers will be just fine. You'll encounter more problems with the room then you will the difference between the 2 listed speakers.
 
@luft262 that sub can be crossed up to 100 Hz (blue) and doesn't go really low (which ain't a problem if you ask me).
611kef.meas.jpg
Spinorama.org lacks a lot third party measurements from ASR and elsewhere. Actually it's only ASR Amir's and Erin (from it's corner) with only a couple of measurements from other places/people.
And there is always the question how hard will it be to integrate subwoofer (which depends on both speakers and sub frequency response if you want to avoid having the high pass filter and will the 80 Hz embedded one on the sub be good if it have it in the first place). Thing's as always are much more complicated than we pretend they are.
Have a nice time and give him direct propositions for low budget speakers (and hopefully better than mine) from Spain.
 
ZolaIII said:
@luft262 that sub can be crossed up to 100 Hz (blue) and doesn't go really low (which ain't a problem if you ask me).
View attachment 272895
Spinorama.org lacks a lot third party measurements from ASR and elsewhere. Actually it's only ASR Amir's and Erin (from it's corner) with only a couple of measurements from other places/people.
And there is always the question how hard will it be to integrate subwoofer (which depends on both speakers and sub frequency response if you want to avoid having the high pass filter and will the 80 Hz embedded one on the sub be good if it have it in the first place). Thing's as always are much more complicated than we pretend they are.
Have a nice time and give him direct propositions for low budget speakers (and hopefully better than mine) from Spain.
Click to expand...
The way he makes it sound he's not willing to get a different sub or a 2nd sub and he's set on one of 2 speakers. If he wants better speakers he should consult soioniramas wherever he can find them. If not I still say he just picks up the cheaper of the two. Since he's not using Rew or a measurement mike the whole project is fairly limited. Probably just get the cheaper, prettier, or better fitting (space wise) of the two. Speaker choice will be irrelevant for a higher crossover as the sub is the limiting factor and he's unwilling to change the sub. As far as a lower crossover the sub will still go lower than either... You're right it all get complicated, but since he's building a basic system without measurements between a very limited set of products it's gonna be more about convenience.
 
It's not about who is right (or wrong). Find and propose to him a budget speakers without bigger flaws and relatively good score that will be easy to menage. I am a little angry on him as he told after three days how it's a close range on the table. Kali's LP 6 V2 with relatively narrow dispersion for near field (more direct response/less room influences) is a natural choice and nothing even comes close (to my knowledge) in that price bucket.

Measurements for speaker Kali LP-6v2

www.spinorama.org www.spinorama.org
And to re confirms Eren's measurements (as I had discussion about that cuple days back).

The 3D3A Lab at Princeton University

www.princeton.edu www.princeton.edu
Best regards and have a nice time.
Edit: and I don't think he really needs a sub with them.
 
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@ZolaIII I appreciate your suggestions of speakers, but the dimensions limit is there. One of the speakers has to go on a corner of a table-wall, and the other goes on a shelf, and it has another shelf on top. The maximum heigth it was 24'5, but after decidint to buy the Polk Audio r15 drilled new holes to put the shelves in a way that will fit. Fortunately you told me those weren't good enough and the purchase has been cancelled. Are the Dali Zensor Pico better? Who knows, but probably, as everything I have read about Dali is much better than what I have read about Polk.

And money, Zolalll, the second Dali's are going to cost me 130€, while most of your suggestions cost more than the double. But the real problem it is not the money (in this range), the problem is the size. They have to be very small, otherwise I would have bought the Wharfedale 8.1 or the 9.1 and it would have been much easier.

I don't think I will have the best sub of the world, but it will be a decent one, and also don't need it for movies, so don't care for 20hz. 30hz seem ok to me. Can't afford 450€ in a second hand SVS, nor I need it. A sealed decent one will work. Maybe there is a change at the last moment and not going to have the KEF Q400B, and will have a Dynavoice challenger sub 10 instead. Second-hand world problems.

The idea of this thread was to know if having a speakers with more o less low frequences would interfere with the acoustics of a small room. Facts like Schroeder frequency, room gain or needs for bass traps. AFAIK to have speakers without very low frequencies could easy the process of finding a good speaker placement. If I am wrong correct me please, as I don't know much of this world.
 
Zeppelin said:
@ZolaIII

The idea of this thread was to know if having a speakers with more o less low frequences would interfere with the acoustics of a small room. Facts like Schroeder frequency, room gain or needs for bass traps. AFAIK to have speakers without very low frequencies could easy the process of finding a good speaker placement. If I am wrong correct me please, as I don't know much of this world.
Click to expand...
The room will always be an enemy and cause some sort of issue. Whether its detectable or not depends on what your doing with the speakers. If you are casually listening to some music while browsing the web or playing a game, then it may not matter. If you are critically listening or what to really just sit and listen to music and absorb every last detail, then the room will play a major factor.

The main point to consider is you want the sub and speakers to overlap as little as possible. It's hard enough tweaking speaker placement with 2 sources, but add a third overlapping and things can get messy. By going with mains that have a higher response, it sort of helps that problem. The subwoofer will likely cross over, at the least, 80hz, probably higher or to taste (a lot like 100-120).
 
@Zeppelin problem is as much as I tried to find so small speakers that don't sound bad and are not expensive I failed.
Even small one's in decent cabinet would be more tall at least. I won't tell you to buy bad one's disreging of their price and inflated prices in Spain don't help either. I would also advise you to avoid buying one's imported abroad because in that case you won't really have a valid warranty. Considering this I am backing out.
Pioneer SP-BS22-LR or alike with socks in port's would fit in with that sub great and you would have least room problems that way but I can't find them in Spain neither new nor for decent price and of course they still don't fit.
713Pionfig3.jpg
I don't know how credible measurements of Elac BS-41 are and they are smaller so you just might fit them but asked price on Amazon for those is ridiculous (2.5x higher than in US from where they are imported so no warranty). So I can't recommend that.
So I wish you luck and that you find what you are looking for.
 
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Zeppelin said:
The idea of this thread was to know if having a speakers with more o less low frequences would interfere with the acoustics of a small room.
Click to expand...
Your opening post looked more like asking for a validation on some gear that you had decided somehow could do what you are looking for.
Zeppelin said:
finding a good speaker placement
Click to expand...
Is key to good sound much more than deciding on gear a or gear b. From what you wrote, placing one speaker in a corner on a desk and the other on a shelve is not a good start. If you want good advice, let see some pictures of the room and dimension, so we can help you figure what may or may not work.
Zeppelin said:
If I am wrong correct me please, as I don't know much of this world.
Click to expand...
You have found the right place to learn, do not do anything before learning a lot more.:)
 
ozzy9832001 said:
If you are critically listening or what to really just sit and listen to music and absorb every last detail, then the room will play a major factor.
Click to expand...
I will try to enjoy of every detail I can and the 2.1 speakers system will be able to transmit, but as I never have had any absolute HIFI system I would not probably notice if there are minor disbalances
ozzy9832001 said:
The main point to consider is you want the sub and speakers to overlap as little as possible.
Click to expand...
I have asked to someone about this and answered the contrary.
ozzy9832001 said:
It's hard enough tweaking speaker placement with 2 sources, but add a third overlapping and things can get messy. By going with mains that have a higher response, it sort of helps that problem.
Click to expand...
I suspected that
 
Cote Dazur said:
Your opening post looked more like asking for a validation on some gear that you had decided somehow could do what you are looking for.
Click to expand...
It's important to note that before this post I have spend some days searching, reading and making a couple of questions, and the answer I come to is... there is no really small speaker that have been tested and is accepted widely, I imagine specially because those are not the kind of speakers Hi-end HIFI listeners use to be interested at. So what I did is to make a list of 6 or 7 speakers that fits for me, then I asked about it on another thread but have had no answer (the thread was about another topic), so I focused in which brands have had better results (in my quick learning), so I ended with Dali Zensor Pico and Tannuy Mercury 7.1. Life is about taking decisions haha
Cote Dazur said:
Is key to good sound much more than deciding on gear a or gear b. From what you wrote, placing one speaker in a corner on a desk and the other on a shelve is not a good start.
Click to expand...
Just to clarify, there will not be any straigth surface throughout the speakers corners. I will take care of that.
Cote Dazur said:
If you want good advice, let see some pictures of the room and dimension, so we can help you figure what may or may not work.
Click to expand...
Not a bad idea.
Cote Dazur said:
You have found the right place to learn, do not do anything before learning a lot more.:)
Click to expand...
Yes, and no haha As I don't expect of anyone coming here and say: "Hey, Zeppelin! I have the very small speakers with a flat response and under 250€ you were searching for!! Got'em at this link!!". I have read a couple of thread in this forum in a situation like mine, and anyone came with a frequency diagram, so it probably exists, but it has not ben tested. The most probable thing is on monday I buy the Dali. So I guess it's time to bet.

Besides everything, aren't Dali and Tannoy good brands with more succes than failure in their speakers? If I am wrong, correct me please.
 
@Zeppelin decent rigid thick cabinets to minimise harmonics and don't introduce their own for which they also need enough volume. It's increasingly becoming a fashion to design dapper one's while in the past it whose more wider ones. Neither works well if you don't have space for them. Even if you buy best speakers ever made and disreging how much they cost they won't really sound good if you can't put them up correctly.
So picture or a sketch of the room and explanation how you intend to put them would be more than desirable.
And table alone or shelf will introduce z shaped disturbance around 40 or 70 Hz.
There are small speakers that sound great but those are expensive. For example Neumann KH80 (about 900€ and probably lot more in Spain).
Currently there is no better sounding option measured for less money than Kali LP 6 V2 which goes great in near field which 1m is, hopefully there will be one day and it's a task to fulfill for community.
You can always regulate volume on the source (PC or DAC) and with subwoofer you will have to do it like that anyway.
 
ZolaIII said:
@Zeppelin decent rigid thick cabinets to minimise harmonics and don't introduce their own for which they also need enough volume. It's increasingly becoming a fashion to design dapper one's while in the past it whose more wider ones. Neither works well if you don't have space for them.
Click to expand...
Wouldn't it be enough to put inside the speaker absorbers to... absorb the waves?
ZolaIII said:
There are small speakers that sound great but those are expensive. For example Neumann KH80 (about 900€ and probably lot more in Spain).
Click to expand...
Here 490€ each
 
@Zeppelin and absorbing materials are placed inside cabinets (how good and how much price dictate) to improve situations but that's not enough regarding low frequencies. Drivers are also decoupled (how effective like their own hustings or just a absorber layer depends on price) from each other and woffer's have multi level hanging and it all helps but you can't beat physics.
 
Zeppelin said:
I have asked to someone about this and answered the contrary.
Click to expand...
In a small room, less overlap is better. Less likelihood of constructive or destructive interference. A lot comes down to preference and how it sounds to you. In my experience, less energy put into room modes, the better. Since Low Frequencies are omni directional in nature, they don't have to be coming at you from the mains to sound like they are coming from the phantom image. Thus, from 80hz or around, most subs should begin to pickup most of the work. Some like the sub picking up around 100 or 120. I find 90 to be best for me and my tastes.
 
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