Pro-Ject RS2, and Sutherland 20/20 MK2 Phono's

[Mahj66]

Hello to ALL

This is my first post.

Would like to ask users about these two phono's preamps: Pro-Ject RS2, and Sutherland 20/20 MK2 with LPS option. What are your impressions of their SQ quality, pros and cons (dull, lack of drive, poor dynamics, congestion,...).

And how does the RS2 compare to the old SEII phono?

The reason I'm asking is that I have Whest PS30 at the moment, but I'm not happy with it. So, i want a good upgrade.

Many Thanks.

 

[LTig]

Hello to ALL

This is my first post.

Welcome aboard.

Would like to ask users about these two phono's preamps: Pro-Ject RS2, and Sutherland 20/20 MK2 with LPS option. What are your impressions of their SQ quality, pros and cons (dull, lack of drive, poor dynamics, congestion,...).

I don't think they have been measured, at least not here. In this price range though you can find excellent phono preamps measured here. Which one to recommend depends on your pickup (MM, MC).

• The Cambridge Audio Solo and Duo are very good (I own the Duo for a low output MC pickup) but have no means to adjust gain and load.
• Michael Fidlers preamp has all the adjustments (AFAIR) but comes at a price (yet still cheaper than the Sutherland)
• The Waxwing is the best in terms of features to reduce clicks and pops. Definitely a must buy if your records are not very clean.

The reason I'm asking is that I have Whest PS30 at the moment, but I'm not happy with it. So, i want a good upgrade.

What are not happy with? Noise? Distortion? Nasty clicks and pops? Maybe a better pickup (or a new needle) makes more sense in terms of ROI.

 

[Mahj66]

What are not happy with? Noise? Distortion? Nasty clicks and pops? Maybe a better pickup (or a new needle) makes more sense in terms of ROI.

Thanks LTig, for the reply and good recommendations.

Whest: seems to have some issues. Sound: electronic, or nosier, or bright. Maybe all! It is the only unit i have in my life that confuses me greatly.

My first high-end turntable was in 2010, Pro-Ject RPM 9.1 SP2 with a SEII phono. It's the best SQ i ever had, and compete my Krell top gear. The SEII is an "exceptional" unit, sounds natural and musical, doesn't sound either SS or Tube, and does not do anything wrong, except moderate drive and power. Whest more power, drive, resolution,.. , but misses a lot in other areas. It's not a unit for listening.

 

[LTig]

Thanks LTig, for the reply and good recommendations.

Whest: seems to have some issues. Sound: electronic, or nosier, or bright.

Could be a wrong load. Too much capacitive load can lead to a large spike in the treble. I need more data:

1. your current pickup
2. Type and length of the phono cable
3. I coudn't find data about the Whest, so look into the manual and search for the input resistance and capacitance and tell the values.

 

[Mahj66]

Could be a wrong load. Too much capacitive load can lead to a large spike in the treble. I need more data:

Tested on several cart, Shelter 9000 and BM LPS.

1. your current pickup

VPI Signature 2

1. Type and length of the phono cable

AQ WEL Signature, 1.2m

1. I coudn't find data about the Whest, so look into the manual and search for the input resistance and capacitance and tell the values.

No resistance and capacitance data available. Also, no test review i found, except Stereophile for the .20 model, which looked disappointing (tacky and amateurish).

Whest PhonoStage.20 phono preamplifier | Stereophile.com

Like the $29,000 Boulder 2008 phono preamplifier, the new Whest PhonoStage.20 with its MsU.20 power supply costs as much as a car. Fortunately for you, that car happens to be my first new Saab, which cost exactly $2737 back in 1972. The solid-state Whest costs $2595, so it's a few hundred...

www.stereophile.com

Also, several build-up issues, like the RIAA board somehow floating, like one corner not screwed to the chassis, can move when touched by a finger or when shacking the unit, and IEC inlet priority. I never saw anything like this except in the old days (70s and beyond), from very cheap/unreliable units.

 

[DVDdoug]

(dull, lack of drive, poor dynamics, congestion,...).

I'm not sure what that means. "Dull" is probably a lack of highs which can be tweaked with EQ/tone controls.

In the vinyl days a lot of records were rather dull sounding, with some exceptions. When I occasionally digitize a record that I can't find in digital format, I'll often boost the highs. I no longer buy or play records and I'd expect modern records to be better but some people say that's not the case.

The cartridge will also effect frequency response, including the capacitive "load" from the wiring and preamp (as mentioned by LTing above). The cartridge specs usually include the optimal capacitance, but we often don't know the total in the setup. Sometimes the input capacitance is specified for the preamp and sometimes it's adjustable, but we also need to include the wiring inside the turntable and the connecting cables.

Or if the preamp's RIAA equalization is off that will create frequency response variations (like "dullness") but that's usually minor and the preamp usually isn't the problem.

The dynamics... The range from quiet to loud... comes from the recording, not the equipment. If you overdrive an amplifier or preamp into clipping, that's a "bad kind" of dynamic compression but it's heard as distortion rather than compression. Older records tend to have more dynamic contrast than modern "loudness war" recordings. But ironically, "louder" is often described as sounding "more dynamic".

IMO - The main consideration with phono preamps is noise (hiss or hum in the background). It can sometimes be audible depending on how loud you are listening, or with headphones, but once the record is playing the surface noise from the record usually dominates.

The reason I'm asking is that I have Whest PS30 at the moment, but I'm not happy with it. So, i want a good upgrade.

The preamp probably isn't the problem.

I'm not happy with vinyl, period! Many people enjoy it but technically it's an inferior format (compared to digital) with several potential problems/limitations/variations and you can ALWAYS hear some background noise, and sometimes bad clicks & pops can be very annoying (to me).

 

[Mahj66]

The preamp probably isn't the problem.

The images below, for Whest PS 30 dip switches. The RIAA board moves backward inside by a slight push. Is that normal?

 

[LTig]

Tested on several cart, Shelter 9000 and BM LPS.

Those are low output MC pickups, with rather different mechanical properties (mass and compliance), so at least one of them is probably not well matched to your arm.

The effective moving mass of the arm (see specs of the arm) plus the mass of the pickup - together with the spring characteristics of needle (see compliance in the specs) - create a resonating system. Its resonance frequency should be around 10 Hz. Too high and rumble becomes audible, too low and tracking ability suffers. Without knowing those three parameters you cannot choose a proper pickup.

I grew up with vinyl and back in those days manufacturers published those specs. Nowadays there are seemingly many companies selling vinyl equipment which have no history at all and no clue what is important to match arm and cartridge. I would no buy anything without all required specs.

VPI Signature 2

I couldn't find anything about a pickup having this name; could be a turntable.

AQ WEL Signature, 1.2m

No specs regarding capacitance. On the other hand, if you use only low output MC pickups, the capacitance is not relevant.

No resistance and capacitance data available. Also, no test review i found, except Stereophile for the .20 model, which looked disappointing (tacky and amateurish).

Whest PhonoStage.20 phono preamplifier | Stereophile.com

Like the $29,000 Boulder 2008 phono preamplifier, the new Whest PhonoStage.20 with its MsU.20 power supply costs as much as a car. Fortunately for you, that car happens to be my first new Saab, which cost exactly $2737 back in 1972. The solid-state Whest costs $2595, so it's a few hundred...

www.stereophile.com

Ahem yes - and how much did this cost? The Cambridge Audio Alva (Solo and Duo) run circles around it.

Also, several build-up issues, like the RIAA board somehow floating, like one corner not screwed to the chassis, can move when touched by a finger or when shacking the unit, and IEC inlet priority. I never saw anything like this except in the old days (70s and beyond), from very cheap/unreliable units.

That doesn't look promising. I think you can't go wrong with any of the MC phono preamps which measured excellent here. Those which offer no gain or load settings are usually designed for low output MC pickups, so should be no problem if noise is low and input impedance around 100 ohm. If your current pickup is a high output or very low output MC pickup you need to look closer for a matching phono preamp.

A few words: I was literally shocked seeing the prices of the devices you mentioned. My vinyl chain was not cheap either (Linn LP12/Lingo/Ekos, AT33PTG/II, CA Alva Duo) but no expensive cables or preamps (before the CA Alva I had a DIY phono preamp which did sound just as good). I am an EE and know about cables, their parameters and where they matter. With each single improvement its sound became closer to CD, which in my view is a good thing since I have no problems with digital audio.

You may have a different preference. One can choose components to create a specific sound which is not accurate but preferable. So take my advice with a grain of salt.

Having said this, it makes more sense though to use tone controls or EQ to shape an accurate system to once preference. I have a Behringer Ultrafex Pro between preamp and active speakers to improve the sound (more bass, more treble, wider sound stage) of not so well made recordings. If I don't need it I switch it off and it takes itsself out of the chain.

 

[LTig]

The images below, for Whest PS 30 dip switches. The RIAA board moves backward inside by a slight push. Is that normal?

Open the lid and have a look inside. If the board is mounted on rubber like feet it could be OK. If not check if something became loose.

 

[Mahj66]

Those are low output MC pickups, with rather different mechanical properties (mass and compliance), so at least one of them is probably not well matched to your arm.

My TT is VPI Signature 21, Fatboy Gimbal 10-3D Tonearm. I believe it is a match with these cartridges. And like i said before, i have another phono, like pro-ject and it's perfect. The issue with Whest is really bothering me, particularly it costs a lot, but I have this fundamental problem.

 

[Mahj66]

Open the lid and have a look inside. If the board is mounted on rubber like feet it could be OK. If not check if something became loose.

Once, I opened and wasn't impressed by what was inside. But i never noticed any robber beneath the board.

To be precise, if you look at the image, you will notice the two dip adjustments on the right side look closer to the chassis. These can go backwards, but it's not easy. But the other two adjustments on the left side are far from the chassis. These are very easy to push back, but completely nothing holds them back. It felt the board had only two or three screws to the chassis, but far from the end board which has the dip switches, which at this end are not tight securely with the chassis.

The unit looks very cheaply made from the inside, but from the outside it looks like a tank! This unit sold for £3000!

I will open it up and take some images. I will take it to a technician and do some tests. But i may need a little time.

 

[LTig]

My TT is VPI Signature 21, Fatboy Gimbal 10-3D Tonearm. I believe it is a match with these cartridges.

This arm has an effective mass of 10.2 g (see the specs).

• The Shelter 9000 has a compliance of 9 cu and a mass of 11g, resulting in a resonance frequency of 11.5 Hz - slightly high. (see here how to calculate this)
• The Benz Micro LPS has a compliance of 15 cu and a mass of 16.4g, resulting in a resonance frequency of 8 Hz (a bit too low). The Benz Micro LP with a lower mass of 10.7g would resonate at 9 Hz and hence is better matched.

You may have a look into this thread for more information about matching arm and pickup.

 

[Mahj66]

This arm has an effective mass of 10.2 g (see the specs).

• The Shelter 9000 has a compliance of 9 cu and a mass of 11g, resulting in a resonance frequency of 11.5 Hz - slightly high. (see here how to calculate this)
• The Benz Micro LPS has a compliance of 15 cu and a mass of 16.4g, resulting in a resonance frequency of 8 Hz (a bit too low). The Benz Micro LP with a lower mass of 10.7g would resonate at 9 Hz and hence is better matched.

You may have a look into this thread for more information about matching arm and pickup.

Interesting! I said my tonearm Fatboy Gimbal 10-3D, effective mass: 10.7 g. You pick other tonearm!

 

[LTig]

Interesting! I said my tonearm Fatboy Gimbal 10-3D, effective mass: 10.7 g. You pick other tonearm!

Oops, you're right (took the Prime Gimbal 10-3D). 0.5 g more makes not much of a difference though, here the correct values (just ~ 0.1 Hz lower):

• Shelter 9000: 11.4 Hz
• Benz Micro LPS: 7.9 Hz, Benz LP: 8.9 Hz

 

[Mahj66]

Thanks a lot, LTig, for helpful input. Very much appreciated!

Just to clear, I mentioned in my first post (dull, lack of drive, ...), I meant in case these units "might" have these negative issues. It's my wrong typing mistake. Sorry!