Pro-Ject Carbon Evo vertical tracking angle

[raymundka]

Hi, I've just purchased a Pro-Ject Carbon Evo turntable. One of the first things I noticed that the carbon tonearm is not paralell with the record surfaces.
The cartrige is a pre-mounted Ortofon m2 model (standard in Europe). The height of the tonearm is fixed, it can only be lifted with a shim which is sold separately.
My question is weather I should purchase the shim and build it in (takes some skill) to raise the carbon arm by about 1.5-2 mms (which is still less than the 3 to 4 mms needed)
or should I suppose that the VTA of the stylus is correct the way the the product was sold with the fitted m2 cartridge. Thank you

 

[AaronJ]

In my experience VTA has negligible effect on the performance of a cartridge. Maybe I’ve never had a cart that’s been significantly impacted by it - my experiences are with Ortofon OM10 and OM10, ATVM95MC and VM95ML, and Shure V15V-MR. Messing with VTA even on the fly and listening through headphones and speakers has had zero noticeable impact to my ears. Anecdotally some carts are more sensitive to VTA than others but I suspect with the Ortofon 2M line you’re fine with whatever came stock.

VTF, azimuth, and alignment are far, far more important than VTA (and anti-skate which is so debated that it ranges from zero anti-skate to matching the VTF).

 

[Chrispy]

I'd assume it was setup correctly for the stock cartridge by ProJect but why not just ask them? My tt has vta adjustment but never tried to compare it, I just set it and forget it.

 

[raymundka]

In my experience VTA has negligible effect on the performance of a cartridge. Maybe I’ve never had a cart that’s been significantly impacted by it - my experiences are with Ortofon OM10 and OM10, ATVM95MC and VM95ML, and Shure V15V-MR. Messing with VTA even on the fly and listening through headphones and speakers has had zero noticeable impact to my ears. Anecdotally some carts are more sensitive to VTA than others but I suspect with the Ortofon 2M line you’re fine with whatever came stock.

VTF, azimuth, and alignment are far, far more important than VTA (and anti-skate which is so debated that it ranges from zero anti-skate to matching the VTF).

Thank you for your answer. You wrote you had a Shure V15-MR. Actually, I still have a vintage Shure V15 III cartrige purchased in1979, more than 50 years ago. The stylus needs replacement. Japanese made hyper elliptical and Shibata styli are available for prices ranging from EUR 130 to 190. I'm not happy with the sound of my m2 Red, I find it thin and poor in deatails so the upgrade is a must for me. Should I purchase a Japanese replacement stylus and re-start using my beloved old Shure cartrige or you'd recommend other alternatives like stylus replacement from red to blue, changing for m2 bronze (whole cartrage), buying a Nagoka 110/150 or an Audio-Technica AT-VM95ML? I am interested very much in your personal opinion. Thank you.

In my experience VTA has negligible effect on the performance of a cartridge. Maybe I’ve never had a cart that’s been significantly impacted by it - my experiences are with Ortofon OM10 and OM10, ATVM95MC and VM95ML, and Shure V15V-MR. Messing with VTA even on the fly and listening through headphones and speakers has had zero noticeable impact to my ears. Anecdotally some carts are more sensitive to VTA than others but I suspect with the Ortofon 2M line you’re fine with whatever came stock.

VTF, azimuth, and alignment are far, far more important than VTA (and anti-skate which is so debated that it ranges from zero anti-skate to matching the VTF).

 

[AaronJ]

I’ve not used a V15-III but have heard great things about it. The replacement styli from Jico and LP Gear are good and if you liked it back then I’m sure you’d like it now. Personally I’d go with the LP Gear because I think it has better tonal balance than Jico. I’m sure if you did a little research you could figure out which might sound better to your ears in your system.

The AT VM95ML is a superb cart for the money as long as you can keep the capacitive loading down. It tracks everything so well, and what it may lack in channel separation it more than makes up for in tonality and tracking ability.

I’m done with Ortofon carts and am not surprised you don’t like the 2M Red. I find the VM95ML to be much more pleasing than the OM30 which costs twice as much. I only keep it as a backup - if my V15V-MR goes down I move the VM95ML from my second system to the main system and put the OM30 in the second system.

I’ve never heard Nagaoka but I think once you go with a line contact stylus there is no going back.

 

[drmevo]

Hi, I've just purchased a Pro-Ject Carbon Evo turntable. One of the first things I noticed that the carbon tonearm is not paralell with the record surfaces.
The cartrige is a pre-mounted Ortofon m2 model (standard in Europe). The height of the tonearm is fixed, it can only be lifted with a shim which is sold separately.
My question is weather I should purchase the shim and build it in (takes some skill) to raise the carbon arm by about 1.5-2 mms (which is still less than the 3 to 4 mms needed)
or should I suppose that the VTA of the stylus is correct the way the the product was sold with the fitted m2 cartridge. Thank you

I had the Debut Carbon Evo for awhile, and if memory serves the tonearm was not quite “straight-bore” but slightly conical (I could be wrong). Are you checking the tonearm itself or the white line in the center of it?

 

[raymundka]

I had the Debut Carbon Evo for awhile, and if memory serves the tonearm was not quite “straight-bore” but slightly conical (I could be wrong). Are you checking the tonearm itself or the white line in the center of it?

You're quite right. The tonearm is really slightly conical. I was wrong when I measured the angle between the bottom of the tonearm and the record surfce instead of the white line. The white line is perfectly paralell with the surface of a normal weight vinyl record. Actually, I use rubber/cork mat instead of the felt that came with the TT but it's not thicker than the felt (1.5 mms). My concerns are gone, thank you.

 

[drmevo]

You're quite right. The tonearm is really slightly conical. I was wrong when I measured the angle between the bottom of the tonearm and the record surfce instead of the white line. The white line is perfectly paralell with the surface of a normal weight vinyl record. Actually, I use rubber/cork mat instead of the felt that came with the TT but it's not thicker than the felt (1.5 mms). My concerns are gone, thank you.

No problem! I used a rubber/cork mat as well (I think from Hudson HiFi) and I liked it a lot. Not only did it improve the appearance, but it caused far less static than the felt mat.

It seems to be popular lately in turntable forums to criticize Pro-ject, perhaps because of all the buzz and positive reviews the Evo received, but I think it’s a really nice ‘table, especially for the price. Apparently the earlier models had issues with motor sound but I think they solved that with this one.

 

[raymundka]

Yes, they redisgned the motor suspension. I don't experience any issues with the motor sound. I think the table is an excellent value for its price. The weakest point is the red cartridge, I think. A fixed height one piece straight ultra light tone arm makes it difficult to upgrade the cartridge with MM brands and models other than the ones that Ortofon offers.
I tend to give up the idea to change the cartridge to models from Nagaoka or Audio technika. The easy way seems to stick to Ortofon. Should I just buy a blue stylus for the red cartridge - which is the cheapest way to go - or take a deep breath and purchase a complete m2 Bronze cartridge? The second option opens the way to a furher upgrade by the possibility of changing the bronze fine line stylus to the black shibata one once it's worn out and there's enough money in my pocket to afford it. Which way do you think I should go?

 

[AaronJ]

Audio Technica is stupid easy to replace the stylus, and I just think they make better cartridges irrespective of cost as long as you’ve got your capacitance sorted.

For $35 less than the cost of just the Blue stylus you can get an entire VM95ML cart and the AT will significantly outperform it and also last longer for less $, and the next stylus will also be less expensive to replace. The VM95 body is threaded so installing the screws is easy.

Keep in mind that if you go up to the bronze or black you should replace the entire cartridge. The stylus will fit the body of the red and blue but the body uses a different generator that supposedly is needed to get the most sonic benefit from the improved stylus.

Also on Ortofon carts the leads are completely goofy and need to be crossed which is completely f*cking stupid. I could be done with Ortofon on principle for that reason alone.

The path of least resistance to improved performance is the 2M Blue and I wouldn’t fault anyone for going that route. My personal preference would be to mount the V15-III and replace the stylus with a HE or get an AT cart. I think the V15-III likes higher capacitance so the choice may be based on your phono pre.

 

[drmevo]

Yes, they redisgned the motor suspension. I don't experience any issues with the motor sound. I think the table is an excellent value for its price. The weakest point is the red cartridge, I think. A fixed height one piece straight ultra light tone arm makes it difficult to upgrade the cartridge with MM brands and models other than the ones that Ortofon offers.
I tend to give up the idea to change the cartridge to models from Nagaoka or Audio technika. The easy way seems to stick to Ortofon. Should I just buy a blue stylus for the red cartridge - which is the cheapest way to go - or take a deep breath and purchase a complete m2 Bronze cartridge? The second option opens the way to a furher upgrade by the possibility of changing the bronze fine line stylus to the black shibata one once it's worn out and there's enough money in my pocket to afford it. Which way do you think I should go?

Here in the US the Evo comes with the Sumiko Rainier. I upgraded to Moonstone stylus for $180 and it was well worth it. The whole Moonstone cartridge is $300 though, and while I like it, I’m not sure it’s a great value at the price since it’s still an elliptical.
I agree that the AT carts, especially the microline styli, are just about the best value going. However, I don’t believe they are all a great match for the Pro-ject in terms of compliance. The VM540ML might be the best match but it will want low capacitance- 100-200pF is what they specify, so you’d want to check your phono preamp output capacitance spec (hopefully 100pF or so) and make sure you have low-capacitance phono cables (Blue Jeans LC-1 are quite low).

I don’t have direct experience with the Ortofon 2M Red or Blue, but I do have their direct predecessors, the Super OM 10 and 20. The 20 is so much better than the 10 - far less sibilance, inner groove distortion, etc. I’d expect the Blue is similar in relation to the Red. I would see if I could find a lightly used or open box Blue stylus if you’re on the fence. Then you won’t need to realign, etc., and it would for sure be a big improvement.

 

[BR52]

check your phono preamp output capacitance spec (hopefully 100pF or so)
Input capacitance!

 

[raymundka]

Here in the US the Evo comes with the Sumiko Rainier. I upgraded to Moonstone stylus for $180 and it was well worth it. The whole Moonstone cartridge is $300 though, and while I like it, I’m not sure it’s a great value at the price since it’s still an elliptical.
I agree that the AT carts, especially the microline styli, are just about the best value going. However, I don’t believe they are all a great match for the Pro-ject in terms of compliance. The VM540ML might be the best match but it will want low capacitance- 100-200pF is what they specify, so you’d want to check your phono preamp output capacitance spec (hopefully 100pF or so) and make sure you have low-capacitance phono cables (Blue Jeans LC-1 are quite low).

I don’t have direct experience with the Ortofon 2M Red or Blue, but I do have their direct predecessors, the Super OM 10 and 20. The 20 is so much better than the 10 - far less sibilance, inner groove distortion, etc. I’d expect the Blue is similar in relation to the Red. I would see if I could find a lightly used or open box Blue stylus if you’re on the fence. Then you won’t need to realign, etc., and it would for sure be a big improvement.

Thanks for your comment as well of those of others. Unfortunately, the capaticance of my integrated phono preamp is a mistery to me. The turntable is conected with a 130 pF "Pro-Ject Connect It" cable to the amp's phono input. Capacitance is a field that goes beyond my competence. I simply don't know how to keep capaticance low other than choosing the right phono cable. Once I purchase a cartridge, hoping I'm going to experience a more satisfying result in sound accuracy, there's no way back other than buying another cartrige and trying to sell the one that sounded diappointing to my ears. Repacing the cartridge technically does not seem to be an extreme challenge to me once I have the screws it takes and the spacers as well to make the arm paralell with the plate. Of course, allignment must be done too and the new cartridge's weight should be within the range that makes phisically possible to set the recommended tracing force without having to buy a new counterweight from Pro-Ject. But after all, I'm still not certain weather an otherwise excellent AT cartridge should be really proper choice for this Pro-Ject light aluminium arm which makes me just more and more concered as I dig into cartidge alternatives. Heavier S-shaped tone arms with interchangeable headshells might make a decision easier for me. I'm at a loss in'deed, any wise advice is welcome. I just want a better audio reproduction because that's what vinyl is about for me.Thank you for any comment so far

 

[drmevo]

check your phono preamp output capacitance spec (hopefully 100pF or so)
Input capacitance!

Yes! Mixed up my words, thanks.

 

[drmevo]

Thanks for your comment as well of those of others. Unfortunately, the capaticance of my integrated phono preamp is a mistery to me. The turntable is conected with a 130 pF "Pro-Ject Connect It" cable to the amp's phono input. Capacitance is a field that goes beyond my competence. I simply don't know how to keep capaticance low other than choosing the right phono cable. Once I purchase a cartridge, hoping I'm going to experience a more satisfying result in sound accuracy, there's no way back other than buying another cartrige and trying to sell the one that sounded diappointing to my ears. Repacing the cartridge technically does not seem to be an extreme challenge to me once I have the screws it takes and the spacers as well to make the arm paralell with the plate. Of course, allignment must be done too and the new cartridge's weight should be within the range that makes phisically possible to set the recommended tracing force without having to buy a new counterweight from Pro-Ject. But after all, I'm still not certain weather an otherwise excellent AT cartridge should be really proper choice for this Pro-Ject light aluminium arm which makes me just more and more concered as I dig into cartidge alternatives. Heavier S-shaped tone arms with interchangeable headshells might make a decision easier for me. I'm at a loss in'deed, any wise advice is welcome. I just want a better audio reproduction because that's what vinyl is about for me.Thank you for any comment so far

It’s challenging to weigh taking incremental steps vs. buy once, cry once, when it comes to audio equipment in general, but even more so with vinyl playback IMO.

One thing is certain - the 2M Red will not give you the performance that your turntable is capable of. The 2M Blue, while not everyone’s ideal cartridge, would almost certainly work well with your current phono stage, and give you a good baseline with which to compare other cartridges in the future. Otherwise, you’d probably be looking at buying an external phono stage and cables for something like the AT cart to work well.